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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Changes in how rape will be investigated- about time!

590 replies

AWholeLottaNosy · 28/01/2015 22:05

I just read this and I was really pleased. It's about time rape was investigated and prosecuted differently considering the appalling rape conviction rate we have in this country. Imagine there will be an outcry from all the MRAs, but, I think it's very good news...

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11375667/Men-must-prove-a-woman-said-Yes-under-tough-new-rape-rules.html

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DoraGora · 29/01/2015 14:12

I don't know how the new rules challenge socially inept men's perceptions of a woman's participation. But, one thing that they will be expected to do is to adequately explain their actions.

However

barristers, whether sitting on the bench or not, have shown hostility towards victims as young as 13. Guidelines may not help where the law is already being ignored by practising lawyers.

HouseWhereNobodyLives · 29/01/2015 14:12

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HouseWhereNobodyLives · 29/01/2015 14:14

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sausageeggbacon11 · 29/01/2015 14:17

Yonic of course it is unlikely to be any good but he is going to drag that poor girl back through everything (and she is a girl to me dd is about her age). If whatever he has gets the conviction over turned it will be a nightmare.

I am actually not expecting him to produce much as otherwise with all the publicity it would have been available during the court case.

DoraGora · 29/01/2015 14:20

Thanks for the info. Please can somebody link me up to the court details of a case of outdoor stranger rape where the rapist has been acquitted on claims of consent.

YonicScrewdriver · 29/01/2015 14:21

No, he won't. CCRC may decide to re interview her, biut not necessarily. He's still got very little chance of getting everyone back in court.

Mitchy1nge · 29/01/2015 14:36

Dora there is an awful one that comes to mind

the victim was knocked off her bike by a car, the assailant was a total stranger

(this might have been in Aus or US though)

and of course there was the 'contributory negligence' of the mini skirt in the 80s, but I don't think the rapist was acquitted as such, avoided a custodial sentence though I think

AWholeLottaNosy · 29/01/2015 14:42

As regards whether men know what they're doing when they rape women, Project Unbreakable has direct quotes from the rapists ( from the victims). They show clearly the state of mind of the men. Have a read...

freethoughtblogs.com/nirmukta/2014/02/22/how-rapists-manipulate-their-victims/

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HouseWhereNobodyLives · 29/01/2015 14:45

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HouseWhereNobodyLives · 29/01/2015 14:48

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PetulaGordino · 29/01/2015 14:59

that guardian article puffins linked to was sickening, describing how men have used social media after the rape as a way to make it retrospectively look as though their victim consented. i can't even imagine how distressing it would be to receive a message saying "thank you for last night" or a bunch of flowers from your rapist

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit · 29/01/2015 15:06

House and AWholeLottaNosy those articles... there aren't really words.

PetulaGordino · 29/01/2015 15:08

there really aren't

HouseWhereNobodyLives · 29/01/2015 15:24

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HouseWhereNobodyLives · 29/01/2015 15:26

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MoreBeta · 29/01/2015 15:36

This is a law that has been brought in mainly to address date rapes and where a woman in incapacitated with drink, etc. Clearly someone who is incapacitated cant say yes or no.

This is a good thing.

Where I worry is as follows.

First, it is impossible to prove someone said 'yes'. If a woman says 'yes' and then make a complaint it is still one person's word against another.

Second, does a man literally have to ask a woman formally 'do you want to have sex' in order to have a defence? In many cases, sex does not really happen like that but is a mutual act where a series of acts lead up to sex. That is why in the past a jury often threw out cases because a woman acted like 'she was agreeing', for example by agreeing to accompany him to his flat or 'inviting him in for a coffee' or 'flirting and dancing and drinking with him all night. In fact juries going back in history were looking for evidence of a tacit unspoken 'yes' evidenced by her actions. Look at what she did not what she said she said.

I can see defence barristers will still persuade juries that a 'yes' was unspoken but 'an implied yes' was given evidenced by certain behaviours a woman might exhibit and I can see juries being persuaded. Adults who have had sex know that women does not literally say 'yes lets have sex' every time she has sex. Its unrealistic and goes against human nature and behaviour. Do married couples literally have a stilted legal defence 'yes-no' conversation every time they have sex? Of course they don't.

AWholeLottaNosy · 29/01/2015 15:37

A lot of rapes are more premeditated than people realise. A few years ago there was a documentary on drug rape. A lot of the rapes were committed by groups of who obviously all knew what they were doing but there was also another man who would meet women online, form a relationship with them, invite them over and put a drug into their drink, rape them whilst they were unconscious and film it. Chilling.

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shaska · 29/01/2015 15:50

MoreBeta I know what you're saying and I'm sure this won't fix everything. But I do think if examples that indicate active consent are required it will help, rather than examples of non-consent. Someone gave an example earlier in the thread which I thought was really accurate.

Every time DH and I have sex we of course don't have a yes/no conversation, as you said. But I'm confident that either of us, if you took any recent sexual interaction, would be able to give a number of examples of the others consent and active participation in the sexual act - everything from words to actions.

People aren't dumb. It's actually quite easy to tell when someone does or doesn't want to do something. I think it belittles men to say that it's a grey area, really - it isn't at all.

Shelby2010 · 29/01/2015 15:53

While I think the guidelines are a good thing, presumably a woman can still give consent even if she is drunk?

The scenario I'm thinking of is: married woman out on a works do ends up having drunken sex with a colleague, both participated enthusiastically, both equally drunk. Next day she regrets it, says she would never have done it if she was sober, therefore she didn't give valid consent. How would this be viewed under the new guidelines?

MrsKCastle · 29/01/2015 15:56

MoreBeta your concerns are linked to the rape myth that says
'Women often regret consensual sex and claim it was rape.'

If a man gets a clear 'yes' from a fully aware woman, it is unlikely that he will find himself facing a rape charge.
If he did, you're right that he can't prove the 'yes'. But his evidence will be pretty compelling because he'll be able to describe in detail what led him to believe he had consent. (And hopefully 'and invited me in for coffee' won't be any part of that.)

And no, most couples don't have a legal defence conversation before sex, but they DO make it very clear through verbal and non-verbal cues whether or not they're up for it. The argument that we all need to sign some kind of contract to be safe from reprisals is ridiculous. We just need to make sure we're paying attention to our partners and not doing anything they don't want.

PetulaGordino · 29/01/2015 16:00

morebeta it sounds like you are worried that suddenly lots of women who have enthusiastically, though not verbally, consented to sex are likely to report their sexual encounter as rape. do you think that is a concern?

cailindana · 29/01/2015 16:00

MoreBeta - what often happens now is that the defence refers to the fact that the woman was wearing certain clothes, had sex with the defendant in the past, had a drink with the defendant, etc as evidence of 'implied consent.' Hopefully this change will move towards recognising that what is important is that the woman agrees to and participates in the sexual act itself. So if a man says he doesn't know if a woman was ok with something then that should be strong evidence of rape.
Would it be so bad if we expected men to ask directly 'do you want this'?

cailindana · 29/01/2015 16:04

Shelby why would a woman do that?

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit · 29/01/2015 16:07

People who leap to 'so we need to have a contract and I need to specifically ask x y or z?!?!' need to take a long hard look at their sexual behaviour. It's pretty clear when sex is by mutual consent, and also pretty clear to evidence how you believed it was by mutual consent. The chances of being accused of rape after you got clear, enthusiastic consent from a partner are very very small. And presumably you would even then be able to list of all the ways she acted and all the things she said that lead you to believe it was a mutually consenting act.

If you don't think you would be able to come up with a list of the ways your partner acted or spoke that lead you to believe they were consenting, then... well, something is very wrong and you should stop.

NimpyWWindowmash · 29/01/2015 16:07

to get herself out of a tricky situation?