Feminism and Islam

[Vivacia]

Last night I got chatting to a woman at my evening class. She's a muslim and wears the hijab and niqab because there are male students in the room.

We had a really good talk for about 50 minutes after the class and talked about all sorts of things related to her beliefs, her lifestyle and her experience of being a recent immigrant to our country (I live in an area with very small muslim population, let alone those following the religion as strictly as she chooses to).

We spoke about tonnes, as I say, and my mind's been a whirl since. I'd appreciate thinking this through to get my thoughts straight - so any thoughts, experiences or suggested reading appreciated.

M

When I went on a mosque tour with DW in middle east, Bahrain I think, was told women sit/pray at back so that men don't get distracted. Though I think they had a different room too. Funnily it was carried out by two women with one a local and the other a Brummie.

I thought it was all about modesty and men should be dressed too. Which too me made sense when I see the Arab man with all his long white robes, which break up his bodyshape and the woman the same.

But in the west the black robes draw attention to you, so isn't that the opposite? I don't see why people cant wear nice colourful or plain head scarfs to show a difference from wearing it to show its for your own belief, as the black reinforces patriarchal interpretations.

In Qatar DW was treated quite differently when she put a Burkha on, compared to wearing modest western clothing. She even got discounts in shops.

The idea behind having men and women segregated in a mosque is the same as in an orthodox synagogue - it's so neither gender gets distracted and their focus is praying.

The larger mosques in Saudia Arabia didn't have men at the front and women at the back, if I recall correctly, they had separate entrances and sections.

LapsedMuzza, you said "most of what I've experienced and witnessed first hand is a guys who set themselves up as 'authorities' on Islam, take quotations of context and don't take kindly to being questioned let alone corrected by a woman. When I was younger I read extensively about Islam. Many of the common practises within the British Indian and Pakistani Muslim communities I grew up surrounded by were at odds with the fundamentals within Islam, yet hardly any women were willing to stand up for themselves as it just wasn't acceptable"

My children are Muslim and all had their further education in the West. One of them had to attend diversity lectures as part of her Teacher training and she said it was the most awful experience ever because she had to sit and listen to 2 speakers who were as exactly as you described above.

Not long into the lecture my daughter was so embarrassed by what was going on she started to challenge everything being said. They speakers tried to get her to shut up but gave up when she told them she had studied the Holy Quran in Arabic for 12 years at school as a native first language speaker. She asked the woman who was being especially cutting to my daughter what language she had studied the Quran and the woman said I dont understand Arabic and my daughter told her 'and therein lies the problem'.

She also said they were Islamic Fundamentalists and later asked her head of year if she knew what they stood for. The woman didn't and had obviously thought oh they seem fine, they'll do for the lectures.

My daughter was really angry about it all.

I'm afraid I couldn't take seriously any religion which said that the men in the family must inherit more than the women. It may have been applicable before women worked, but now ?

The word 'Fundamentalist' seems wrong, somehow, as the people we are describing with it are often not espousing the actual fundamentals of whatever it is, rather their own extreme discriminatory take on it. I guess 'Extremist' is maybe the more appropriate terminology then, I don't know.

I'm afraid I have a bit of a problem with a religion which is (apparently) so easily used as the justification for some of the worst human rights abuses of our time.

In Nigeria, the 329 girls kidnapped from their school in Chibok by Boko Haram are still missing. Most people think they have been distributed among the Boko Haram fighting men as 'trophies' or sold as sex slaves.

In a video released just after, their leader Abubakar Shekau said "I abducted your girls. By Allah, I will sell them in the marketplace”

In the same video he also said "I will marry off a woman at the age of 12. I will marry off a girl at the age of nine"

But he says that's all just fine, according to the Qu'ran.

I just get incandescent at the thought of how little has been done about this - if 329 white girls were kidnapped from a school the entire armed forces of NATO would be mobilised.

It's an interesting question. As a Muslim and a feminist I have not encountered any problems in reconciling the two but I was brought up with a more tolerant and open interpretation of Islam than the Saudi-funded version which is now so prominent.

From the courses I have undertaken, pure Islam sees women and men as different but equal. Women are "freed" from the obligation to attend mosque etc as their role is at home.
The problem is that in Islam, discussion and debate is discouraged, followers are supposed to be obedient and not question the Quran. This means that the Quran is not open to any reinterpretation in the context of today's society. At the time the Quran was written, men and women had very different roles, women were largely uneducated and not familiar with the workings of business and the justice system, hence the legal requirement for two female witnesses being equivalent to one man, supposedly.

According to Islam itself, women are allowed to divorce and men are compelled to deliver sexual pleasure to their wife!

Unfortunately, pure Islam is rare. Like all major religions it has been used by patriarchal society to control women. Male scholars "own" Islam and what they say cannot be questioned, especially not by women.

In terms of modesty, the Quran does not explicitly tell women to cover up. That is in the "Hadith", which is a collection of the sayings of the prophet Mohammed (pbuh). Apparently his sister(?) came to his house with bare arms and he told her to cover them. Some Muslims take the Quran more seriously than the Hadith. The Quran is regarded as direct revelation from God and is therefore infallible. (Compared to the New Testament which was a collection of varying eye witness accounts written 30 yrs after Jesus's death).

No religions are sexist in themselves, but the messages are twisted and distorted to fulfil human needs for power and control.

The powerful in all societies use religion as a stick to beat the masses with, to beat them into unquestioning obedience. Especially women.

I am not a Muslim so I apologise for any inaccuracies. My knowledge is based on a couple of short courses about Islam, working in a Muslim community and my friendships with strong Muslim women. My interpretations are my own.

All of this stuff about the Koran just needing to be interpreted for the modern day... kind of makes you think that God was a bit short-sighted when he wrote it.

I think that my experience has really made me look at my understanding of Islam from a very different, more critical and less "blindly respectful" perspective.

YouAre Many Christians would say that both testaments are the word of God, not man.

How can the New Testament be claimed to be the direct word of god when it is a collection of different peoples accounts? Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and others are the authors of their bits, hence their names, and their accounts of events, like the nativity, differ from each other's.

I am seriously not the right person to be explaining how either the koran or the bible could reasonably be explained as the word of a god.

I don't believe it either but the unquestionability(?) of the Quran is based on the belief that it is direct revelation, therefore not to be interpreted or debated by mere mortals.

And my point was that many people believe that the bible is also literally the word of god.

Not if they understand why the gospels have different names.

A quick read of the bible demonstrates that the New Testament is a collection of different peoples accounts and there are differences. Even "facts" about the resurrection are different in each gospel:

Number of women at the tomb:

• Matthew – 2
• Mark – 3
• Luke – 5
• John – 1

Time of visit to the tomb:

• Matthew – Dawn
• Mark – Sun had risen
• Luke – Dawn
• John – Still dark

Messengers at the tomb:

• Matthew – One angel
• Mark – Men
• Luke – Men
• John – Two angels

Etc etc - obviously a collection of human accounts which vary. Surely no one could argue that is the same as "direct revelation". The Quran has a single version of events, although the revelations do vary over time. During the first revelation about alcohol, Mohammed is told that there is more bad than good in alcohol, later he is told not to pray when drunk and later still he is told not to drink alcohol. This could be seen as contradictory or god leading him through a series of steps.

To be honest, how many authors are named (or if it's just the one) seems to be the least of the problems deciding whether a book is literally the word of god or just made up by a bunch of men.

I am a highly educated Muslim woman, married to an imam (think vicar for Muslims), we live a pretty religious life. I don't see myself as a feminist but I'm not certain of the current definition of feminism so don't know if the two things can exist side by side. Islam treats the genders as equal but different, having different rights and responsibilities buy equal worth.
Saudi practises a fairly modern and very strict 'version' of Islam which does not represent the majority of Muslims now or at any other time. The driving issue is ridiculous.

We often visit my husbands home country which is a Muslim country. Women there study and work and have a strong public presence. Women are highly respected, and the role of the mother is almost sacred. I have breastfed in public often and no one would dream of complaining for example. I wasn't bought up as Muslim and without a doubt I feel Islam gives me more rights respect as a woman and a mother.

Hi Perfectly. The definition of feminism that I find most helpful and accurate is that people have equality of opportunity economically, politically, socially and culturally irrespective of their sex.

So for me it's not about similarities or differences so much as equality of opportunity.

You mention, "different rights and responsibilities buy equal worth" yet I read about a man's testimony being equal to that of two women.

Hi perfectly. I agree with Vivacia on the ''equality of opportunity'' explanation.

You say that you feel Islam gives you more rights & respect as a woman and a mother - more than what?

Vivacia, I think from that definition my view of Islam would not be compatible with feminism, though other Muslim women may disagree.

The mans testimony being equal to that of two women, I have heard that in certain circumstances you would need two women as witnesses but only one man. I don't know much about it but will ask DH when he gets in. I've been a witness at peoples conversions and also weddings and my witnessing has been enough, so it's obviously not in all situations.

oneday more than the atheist culture I grew up in.