Feminism and Islam

[Vivacia]

Last night I got chatting to a woman at my evening class. She's a muslim and wears the hijab and niqab because there are male students in the room.

We had a really good talk for about 50 minutes after the class and talked about all sorts of things related to her beliefs, her lifestyle and her experience of being a recent immigrant to our country (I live in an area with very small muslim population, let alone those following the religion as strictly as she chooses to).

We spoke about tonnes, as I say, and my mind's been a whirl since. I'd appreciate thinking this through to get my thoughts straight - so any thoughts, experiences or suggested reading appreciated.

[wildswans]

BTW, I'm not saying that Islam is the only religion to have been interpreted in a patriarchal, oppressive and discriminatory manner. We still have to appoint our first women Bishop, two thousand years after the death of JC, and the RCs are way behind.

[wildswans]

BTW, I'm not saying that Islam is the only religion to have been interpreted in a patriarchal, oppressive and discriminatory manner. We still have to appoint our first women Bishop, two thousand years after the death of JC, and the RCs are way behind.

[wildswans]

Sorry if I'm in a minority, but I think the French have it right regarding the niqab - it is a visible sign of male oppression and female bondage. I am not an atheist but I do believe in a secular state where there is freedom of speech and religion. However, where there is a conflict between state and religion, the state must take priority in a democratic society.

I do not buy into the argument that we should respect other people's religious/cultural practices at all costs; FGM being a case in point.

It's nonsense and offensive to men to say that women need to cover up because men can't control their sexual urges. Is this a defence to rape ie that the victim was 'asking for it' because she didn't cover herself up, from head to toe? No, I don't think so.

And don't even get me started on the treatment of homosexuals by some extreme Islamic groups. I have no doubt that Islam is a great religion but IMHO some of the interpretations are not compatible with the rights of individuals in a free and democratic society

[perfectlybroken]

oneday I hadn't intended to equate atheism and feminism, sorry.
vivacia I thought a lot about that last question you asked, what opportunities should our daughters not have, and then I thought about your definition of feminism again in case I had been hasty in saying the two were not compatible. I came to no clear conclusions
I certainly would ensure my daughters had as much opportunity to education and experiences as my sons. I know many highly qualified Muslim women and many of them work in typically male dominated areas such as engineering and architecture. In the same way, my sons help me to cook and clean, and other roles that may be seen as traditionally 'female'.
However, I would encourage my daughter to think about what career path she chose and how that would fit in with her role as a mother, and I would encourage my son to think about whether his chosen career would reliably provide for a family. Not the other way around.
So yes, the opportunities should be there, but in most cases different decisions may be made. Maybe I can explain with an example from my own life. I was recently turned down for a promotion. The main reason was that there is something I need to do in my own time for my career development, it is expected at this stage of my career. The reason I haven't is because I've had 2 children recently, and have not wanted to do any extra work outside of my working hours, because I wanted to give that time to them. I don't resent that, as I chose to be a mother and in choosing that I put everything else as a lower priority.
Sorry, there is no clear answer there, just some thoughts. I am enjoying this conversation as it is making me think.
buffy the funny thing is I agree with you. I feel I may be getting out of my depth here, but I've always felt that 'feminism' as I have perceived it (possibly wrongly), makes men even more powerful by putting such a high value on what they have. Is money really power? Is financial reward the only way of valuing something?
Tonight my husband is out working, he is tired and not too well. He is earning money. That money will be spent on our household expenses. I am at home, I've chosen what to feed the children and cook us for dinner, so I have control over our diet, and therefore to some degree our health. What I do with the children influences them enormously, and it's me who decides what activities they do, and the books they read before bed.
These things give me quite a lot of power I think.

[OneDayWhenIGrowUp]

"Atheism" doesn't have a view on whether men and women are intrinsically different. There is no atheist doctrine or united atheist stance. The only thing that being an atheist means is that that person does not believe in any supernatural deities- atheist does not equal feminist.

[Vivacia]

(Regarding racial discrimination, there's plenty that's different such as genetic predispositions to certain health conditions, doesn't mean that people shouldn't have equal opportunity to a healthy life).

[Vivacia]

I agree with you that men and women are different. However I feel that they should have the same opportunities economically, socially, politically and culturally. So this bit,

But the bottom line you could call it, the standard we would adhere to if we could not agree, is something which sympathises with the nature of our genders.

is the bit I fundamentally disagree with. I do not believe that men are naturally more suited to earning money or women naturally superior at housework.

What opportunities do you think our daughters should forgo in life that our sons should have?

[perfectlybroken]

You compare differentiating between races to differentiating between sexes. That's probably the crux of our disagreement. We know that there are no significant differences between races, but between sexes? Our eyes and ears alone tel us we are different, and science has revealed differences in our brains, how they process information especially. Pregnancy, birth and breastfeeding are unique to women, and place them in a position in which they need support. So I think the system of Islam works with these differences. A Muslim couple are at liberty to organise their household with the same freedom and disregard for traditional roles as you describe. Many do, me included. But the bottom line you could call it, the standard we would adhere to if we could not agree, is something which sympathises with the nature of our genders.

[Vivacia]

From your last post it seems that you value economic and career success more than the role of running a home or raising children. I realise this is the default position but not all women feel that way.

In that case I've not been clear. I value the individual having choice and say in the matter and it not being decided by their sex. A good rule of thumb for me is if you wouldn't say it in respect to skin colour, don't say it in respect to sex.

I didn't have this in my contract, but still my dh is happy for me to work.

That you have to state this makes me sad.

Oh, and while a wife may not need financially supporting, a mother does surely? Just in purely practical terms.

I believe that children need financially supporting. How a family unit organises housework, childcare and earning is up to them. And not dependent on the sex of the adults within that household.

[perfectlybroken]

Oh, and while a wife may not need financially supporting, a mother does surely? Just in purely practical terms.

[perfectlybroken]

Well vivacia you are being very gentle, thank you! From your last post it seems that you value economic and career success more than the role of running a home or raising children. I realise this is the default position but not all women feel that way. I know women who I consider hugely successful who have never done a day of paid work. But also, Islam does not stop women from working and having careers. A woman who felt strongly about this could stipulate in a marriage contract that she wanted to work. I didn't have this in my contract, but still my dh is happy for me to work. Today I had some Muslim friends over, out of 5 of us we are all married with kids and working, so I am not unusual.

[Vivacia]

I was worried that you'd feel a bit on the stand, Perfectly, speaking for all muslim women everywhere(!). I'm trying not to come across like that, despite my curiosity to better understand.

I was thinking, reading your reply, that this "It is my right as a woman to be fully financially supported by my husband" does not imply equality but an implication that a woman needs to be financially supported by a man for no other reason than she is a wife.

And is providing financial security a burden? I would see the opportunity of employment, to a career and to earn money as not a burden. It seems very convenient to men for them to put motherhood on a pedestal. Sounds like a gilded cage.

I suppose the biggest contradiction with atheist views is that Islam sees women and men as intrinsically different.

I'm starting to wonder if the biggest contradiction is that Islam doesn't state that women should have the same opportunities in life as men. Makes me want to ask Islam, "What rights should men have that I don't have, and why?".

[perfectlybroken]

Thankyou vivacia, I am feeling slightly like I've wandered in to the wolves den here I'm not really one for debating, so can only really explain how I feel about things.
I can't really separate womanhood from personhood, I feel Islam gives me what I need as a woman, and my husband what he needs as a man. An example from our life:
We both work, and my DH looks after the kids while I work. Islam says I don't need to contribute any of the money I earn to household expenses, but I can if I choose to. I do. It is my right as a woman to be fully financially supported by my husband, and if I decided I didn't want to work, or I wanted to keep all my money for myself, my husband would need to shoulder that burden alone. Equally (but differently) he chooses to contribute to childcare and running the house, but if he turned round tomorrow and said he didn't want to do that anymore he could exercise his right to have his home and children cared for while he works.
I suppose the biggest contradiction with atheist views is that Islam sees women and men as intrinsically different.

[Vivacia]

without a doubt I feel Islam gives me more rights respect as a woman and a mother... compared to an atheist culture

Yet, I am struck, fewer rights and respects as a person?

[Vivacia]

Perfectly I'm fascinated and very grateful for you taking the time to contribute. What do you think of the definition of feminism above?

[perfectlybroken]

oneday more than the atheist culture I grew up in.

[perfectlybroken]

The mans testimony being equal to that of two women, I have heard that in certain circumstances you would need two women as witnesses but only one man. I don't know much about it but will ask DH when he gets in. I've been a witness at peoples conversions and also weddings and my witnessing has been enough, so it's obviously not in all situations.

[perfectlybroken]

Vivacia, I think from that definition my view of Islam would not be compatible with feminism, though other Muslim women may disagree.

[OneDayWhenIGrowUp]

Hi perfectly. I agree with Vivacia on the ''equality of opportunity'' explanation.

You say that you feel Islam gives you more rights & respect as a woman and a mother - more than what?

[Vivacia]

Hi Perfectly. The definition of feminism that I find most helpful and accurate is that people have equality of opportunity economically, politically, socially and culturally irrespective of their sex.

So for me it's not about similarities or differences so much as equality of opportunity.

You mention, "different rights and responsibilities buy equal worth" yet I read about a man's testimony being equal to that of two women.

[perfectlybroken]

We often visit my husbands home country which is a Muslim country. Women there study and work and have a strong public presence. Women are highly respected, and the role of the mother is almost sacred. I have breastfed in public often and no one would dream of complaining for example. I wasn't bought up as Muslim and without a doubt I feel Islam gives me more rights respect as a woman and a mother.

[perfectlybroken]

I am a highly educated Muslim woman, married to an imam (think vicar for Muslims), we live a pretty religious life. I don't see myself as a feminist but I'm not certain of the current definition of feminism so don't know if the two things can exist side by side. Islam treats the genders as equal but different, having different rights and responsibilities buy equal worth.
Saudi practises a fairly modern and very strict 'version' of Islam which does not represent the majority of Muslims now or at any other time. The driving issue is ridiculous.

[Vivacia]

To be honest, how many authors are named (or if it's just the one) seems to be the least of the problems deciding whether a book is literally the word of god or just made up by a bunch of men.