Why are women who dont want children not taken seriously.

[Darkesteyes]

I was 21 when i realised i didnt ever want to have children. I asked to be sterilised and was refused.

Ive been prompted to start this thread by seeing the different threads on contraception that have been on the boards recently. Im 41 now and still dont want children.
Im no longer sexually active with DH but have had 2 other partners in the last 18 years. One was long term.

The different contraception i have been on in my life are.
Femodene and Logynon Both of these are combined pills. This was between the ages of 19 and 21.
Norplant = contraceptive implant in the arm between the ages of 21 and 24. (Dh no longer wanted sex so i had it removed)
Depo Provera injection between the ages of 30 and 35 when i was seeing my ex OM.
And in the last few months the mini pill Zelleta.
Adding this all up in my head the amount of hormonal contraceptives ive been on in my life is .....a lot.
Ive known for such a long time that ive never wanted children. There is an article in Grazia this week about contraception and the wording underneath the sections about female and male sterilisation differs greatly.
Female sterilisation.
"for when the woman is sure she doesnt want any more children and has completed her family"

Male sterilisation. "for when the couple has completed their family"

I just wish women were taken more seriously. Ive heard a lot of medical ppl say they wont sterilise a woman who has not had children in case she changes her mind. But many of us WONT change our mind. Is this a way to control womens fertility and sexuality? 20 years later i still feel the same about not wanting children.

I don't think refusing to sterilise a young woman is a feminist issue. I see it as a pragmatic response by doctors to the fact that this is an invasive, optional procedure and that loads of people DO change their minds and would want an expensive, difficult and invasive further procedure to try to reverse it. I was stridently CERTAIN I didn't want kids, right up until one day in my early 30s, when I suddenly, desperately did.

I really do empathise with people who are certain they don't want kids and they have an absolute right to be taken just as seriously as any other woman.

I understand that this is a really difficult area.

I have a friend who aged 26 asked to be sterilised. The GP refused to refer her. I suggested she go back, taking her three DSs ( one with SN) and her DSS with her.... And remind her GP she lives with two very serious health conditions.
Instead her DH had a vasectomy. They later divorced. My friend could really, really do with never having any more DC. But she has been in relationships, and it could happen....

You should have been able to have the procedure if you wanted it! Pretty outrageous that you've been refused.

The really ironic thing is that if you've had one DC by c section, and you're pregnant with no 2 (which you're also having by elective c section), then they CANNOT wait to offer you sterilisation as part of your C section. I was asked 6 times prior to DC2s arrival whether i woulsnt consider it. and this despite saying I wasn't sure whether family was complete.

And afterwards, I have been offered that by my GP as well (2 DC by CS and the wrong side of 40 but still!)

Oh and it's not permanent. The procedure I was offered were clips around my tubes (which I was told could be removed).

This document gives a review of evidence, and what is accepted as best practice for surgical sterilisations of both men and women.

It includes regrets and requests for reversals, and gives links to peer-reviewed papers which show that both are commoner in women than men, and more frequent in the under 30s and those without children at the time of the procedure. Given that, in UK, those are the women who must have argued very hard and persuasively to secure the procedure in the first place, yet are still the highest group for regrets/reversal, I can see why the guidelines are set as they are.

If is also very difficult for a childless man under 30 to secure an NHS sterilisation.

Of course difficulty of reversal is why medics are so disinclined to offer younger women with no children sterilisation. And it could bring on an early menopause with other health problems. Personally I don't think people are sure at 21 and how are the medics supposed to know which people will change their minds and which won't. It's impossible.

Lynette I think in the case of your friend, or indeed any woman who has already had two or more children she should be granted sterilisation on demand regardless of how young she is. The world is over-populated enough, we shouldn't be concerning ourselves with the possible future fickleness of women who have already had a family.

People aren't sure about a great many decisions. Including whether to have children. As a poster said up thread, if you go to the doctor and say you want to get pregnant no one asks you to go away and think about it for 5 years.

I didn't want children as a young woman. I changed my mind in my late 30s and now have two through IVF. If I lived my life over I would stick to my decision as a younger woman. I can't call it regret because there are now two wonderful people in the world and I can't regret their existance. But I wish I hadn't had children.

There is a cultural bias towards having children that the reluctance of the NHS to provide sterilization on request reflects.

BTW scaevola the report you linked to looks at international studies are you sure that it is clear that in the UK women under 30 "who must have argued very hard and persuasively to secure the procedure in the first place ... are still the highest group for regrets/reversal"? Because I couldn't find that claim. Even in the studies that look at regret for women under 30, the vast majority of women do not regret the procedure.

I'm always surprised when this topic comes up as I had a completely different experience to the norm. I have no children and found it surprisingly easy to get sterilised at the age of 29. I actually had two different consultants willing to do it. The first wanted me to lose some weight first and by the time I'd lost the weight and was about to make another appointment to see her the second consultant accepted my referral for Essure which was the procedure I wanted anyway. I never even met the consultant who did it.

'But I wish I hadn't had children'

Boom, that is an extremely difficult and brave thing to admit. Please don't feel alone - I have met many parents who appear to feel exactly the same. Sadly, motherhood is marketed as some kind of fairytale and many mothers end up disappointed and confused about the reality.

Competely agree that there is a strong cultural bias toward having children. I think the world would be a much better and more stable place if it was instead seen as an option out of a range of ways to live your life, and a very serious responsibility which is just not a good idea for everyone.

I think that in medical care, as in so many things, the right course of action is determined by weighing up the positive and negatives of many different courses of action and finding a balance.

In my opinion, judging by the experiences of me and my friends, HCPs are very likely to make the following errors of emphasis:

• massively over-emphasising the importance of one day having children to ALL women
• massively under emphasising the negative effects of long term hormonal contraception on women

I think this applies all the time, not just in cases where these two things are arguably being weighed up directly against each other

The second, in particular, is appalling in terms of the total negative effects it has and continues to have on women's wellbeing.

You are right that the phrase you highlight is not an explicit quote.

I was not aware that sterilisations under 30 were easy to secure (other than in places such as China or India), so it seemed reasonable to me that those who had been sterilised below the typical age norm in the countries in the various surveys must have had to make the case persuasively.

It did state that childless people under 30 were the most likely to seek reversal or express regrets. My apologies for being excessively UK centric.

Fertility treatment is also rationed by NHS by age and number of children (of both partners, so the existence of even an estranged stepchild could be a bar to funding). And you may have to wait.

Lotta it was a secret shame for a long time. It's still a secret around my children, and therefore family, because I don't think it's the sort of thing children should hear from their parents, but it's not a source of shame for me anymore. There was a thread on MN a while ago and there were hundreds of women who admitted the same. I don't think it's that uncommon.

scaevola if IVF were rationed by asking women if they were sure they wanted children and telling them to go off and think about it for a few years because they might change their minds, I think that would also be subject to similar thoughts on this thread. As it is there are plenty of fertility interventions that are not as expensive as IVF and which the NHS has no qualms about making available without prying into whether women are "sure" of their decision to have a baby.

Also, several of the studies in the paper you linked to were from India (possibly some from China, I haven't looked them all up). It is possible that the majority of people represented in the studies that look at regret in those under 30 are from countries where such sterilizations are not just common, but also often coercive and abusive.

Boom, you're absolutely right to keep it from your children. My mother has strongly suggested that she regrets having me and my siblings and it doesn't exactly do wonders for your self esteem!

Lotta that's very hard, I hope you find other things to help make up that gap. My mother had a hard time as a parent (one of the reasons I didn't want children when I was younger) and I can't imagine she would have had my siblings and I when she did if she had her time over, but she neer once made me think I was anything other than a joy in her life and I hope I can do the same for my children.

I think it's one of the things that skews the cultural bias towards children. People who regret not having children are much freer to talk about it than people who regret having them. I'm not sure how to balance letting my children know they are fantastic with letting them know they may not want children of their own.

Thanks Boom, its just a small part of our awful relationship! I've reduced contact massively which is painful but the best way forward.

Good luck to you x

Failure rates of contraception after women have been on them long term.

www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/09/14/sunday-review/unplanned-pregnancies.html?_r=0

Failure rate for Pill after 10 years 61 in 100.
Failure rate for Depo Provera after 10 years 46 in 100.
Failure rate for female sterilisation after 10 years 5 in 100.

I was told the injection was even better and more effective than sterilisation. Was this the wrong information so certain quarters could make money.

I cant speak for any other woman who doesnt want children but falling pregnant can be a real fear for a woman who definately doesnt want children.
I actually felt most secure when i was on the implant in the early to mid 90s and when i was on the Depo though i obvs didnt know these figures back then.

With perfect use the injection is better than female sterilisation (according to those figures). I wonder what it is that causes the real life figures to be so much different. Forgetting to get it done every 6 weeks?