Anti rape posters by Manchester Police

[tethersend]

Well done them

Makes a refreshing change, no?

Hopefully the message in these posters will be rolled out nationally and replace the ones telling victims not to drink or get cabs home

I think birdo question is a good one. And the answers make me want to ask you:
If you were out (as a student) and a guy want to have sex with you. What would you expect him to do? To ask you outright if you are up to it? To take clues from your body language to know you are Giving 'enthusiastic consent'?

What am I wondering is that if you are drunk and so is the guy, will you actually be acting so enthusiastic? And will he be able to analyse it as such if he is so drunk?

Not being difficult but as a student this drunken sex has never been my experience and nor has to 'be pursued relentless' by a guy that was too drunk.
So I'm trying to see what I should say to my two ds knowing that I've never experienced that sort if behaviour myself.

What do you say to your two DD'S TheFriar? You teach them to respect women, to make sure they are enthusiastic and willing to have sex with them every time. Surely it's not that difficult?
If they are too drunk to figure it out they're too drunk to be having sex

That should say DS' s

"And will he be able to analyse it as such if he is so drunk?" If he can't analyse it then he shouldn't be having sex.

Tbf my dcs aren't yet at the age where I will talk to them about what to do when you have sex. Ds1 is 11yo, in Y6 and we've just had a chat about the PIV and how you can always say no at the last minute, even if you are naked.
I have no issue with a guy asking. But it's also not something I've ever experienced either. It was more about body language rather than words.
However ds2 has Asperger syndrome and isn't good at reading body language. So for me telling him (and thus ds1) that asking us essential would be a good start. I wanted to be sure that it would be well received from the other side.
Eg I remember clearly a poster on here saying that her date asked her if she was ok to have sex on each of their dates and she was quite shocked. Pleased but very very surprised so it can't be that common of a response.

I wouldn't worry about respect of women. Both My dcs have known for a long time that I hate sexism and will challenge it at every opportunity. And they are told, on age appropriate subject, that there us no difference between men and women etc.

Tbh if I was thinking about what to tell them, I round go along the lines of that advert I think it's quite to the point.
But there us the issue of this 'grey area' of consensual drunken sex and I want to make it clear for them what are the limits (well esp for ds2 that will need to be told in very clear explicit terms. A 'she looks enthusiastic about it' isn't going to be enough)

What I've said to DS2, who is autistic is that, if you're both drunk and you're not sure that your partner is consenting, why not leave it til morning? There's no time limit or deadline, so, if you're not 100% sure, wait until you are.

The whole 'well, what if they're both drunk, surely neither of them can consent' baffles me slightly. It feels like what people are saying is that, if a pair of people can't have sex right now they may never be able to, and that would be the end of the world, so consent might be a bit of a grey area. Which is a bit weird really.

These posters are very encouraging.

So different from those of the Hungarian police, did anyone see these?

Hungarian police anti-rape campaign

Basically if you click on the picture link you can watch the video - it exhorts women to DO something about rape - apparently we can DO something, we can take responsibility.

Looks like the Hungarian police need to take a leaf out of Greater Manchester's book.

The problem with all that "be safe, be vigilant about your personal safety" etc., is that it puts onus on women to stop rape, just like the Hungarian police are doing. When we know that only men can stop it, as the Manchester police recognise.

Yes, the way going home and going to sleep is framed as somehow just so unfair that it's worth the risk of raping someone, is just gob-smacking really.

First I have to say I'm not British and never 'dated' as such over here. But from an outsider, it looks like pubs and outings (where people are usually drunk) is one of the best way to hook up.
If that is the case, and in general people feel more uncomfortable to ask someone out than in these situations, then I can see why it could be seen as 'now or never' type of situation.
Now to me it sounds crazy. But again reading MN, you would think that for teenagers and young people, going out for a date, talking is just not the done thing anymore (there was a thread about that not do long ago. Apparently
No one dates anymore :(). You just 'hook up' and you do that parties where you are drunk.

Again not trying to justify anything there. Just some observations.

Puffins yes I was thinking along these lines too actually.

And YY to Buffy too.

I wonder about this "hook up" culture though.

How prevalent is it really?

We're led to believe that this is the normal way of socialising for anyone under 25. As an old gimmer, I have no idea if that's true, but it seems pretty unlikely to me. Of course the media will focus on it and make it look as if it is all pervasive, but is it really? Do young people really only ever do "hook up" events as their social life? I just find it difficult to believe.

"Both. Why not? I never understand why some people are so horrified by the idea of using our words to communicate. Like it's somehow a faux pas to talk to the person you're about to engage in an intimate act with"

If I was in the heat of the moment with someone and they stopped what they were doing to say "Do you want to have sex with me?" It would somewhat kill the mood for me. Just wouldn't feel natural. I think a woman should be able to 'consent' physically and it's obvious when she's up for it. I know it wouldn't stand up against current laws but vernal consent is pretty much impossible to prove to.

I find the idea men need verbal permission to have sex with a woman mildly sexist in itself. Imagine if the day comes when they need written consent and signatures. Wouldn't be surprised if some crackpot government somewhere suggests such an idea one day.

"Because the man is the one inserting a body part?"

You must live a very vanilla sex life. A woman can insert a penis and get on top. The idea the female is the submissive gatekeeper to sex is very old fashioned.

Oh dear the old nonsense about contracts.

Contracts wouldn't work dear Bird, because anyone can change their mind at any time during sex so a signed contract is in effect agreement to be raped unless the right to change your mind is one of the clauses in the contract.

HTH

Moving on to your other point, I actually agree with you - it is possible for most men to know when a woman is consenting or not to sex without a verbal communication. The problem isn't that women don't communicate, it's that some men choose to pretend not to understand those communications.

One of the reasons for recommending that you ask "OK?" during sex (oh what a turn off, that little OK will kill the mood won't it - er, no I don't think it will unless things aren't actually going very well to begin with) is so that men who insist they cannot understand women's clear signals re consent or otherwise, have the fall-back position of actually you know, asking. That way, they don't have to risk accidentally raping someone because they couldn't be bothered to make 100% certain that another human being wanted them inside her body. If you think rape is bad, then surely it's not too big an ask that you engage with the person you are touching and feeling and kissing to ensure that she wants to go further? Why would any man think it's too much to ask to ensure he doesn't rape a woman?

A woman can't insert a penis into someone else. Which is what rape is about.

I think you are the one with old fashioned ideas about sex if you think verbal communication shouldn't be part of it. However no one was saying it was a requirement. It should only be a requirement, if, as the man, you are unsure. Don't put the onus or responsibility on the woman for your actions. That is what women being the gatekeepers is all about.