shared parental leave - pissed off

[Chalalala]

DH just doesn't think it's a good idea for us. He says that time off doesn't really work with his line of work (kind of true - but then the same can be said of most jobs). He also says that his boss would not be happy about it (also probably true because his boss is sexist, and while he obviously couldn't technically refuse, DH's advancement does depend on him directly and he could pay for it down the line).

I can already feel that I will give in and take the whole parental leave for myself. Because no one in my job will judge me for it (of course they won't! I'm a woman!), and also because I don't honestly mind that much in practice, it's mostly for the principle that I want DH to take part of the parental leave. (And so he can see for himself what it's like to be at home with 2 DCs under 3!)

To think that I actually think of myself as a feminist, and I may not even make it happen in my own home. Is there no hope?!!!!

Not sure if I'm looking for advice on my particular situation, or just wanting to rant at my DH. Or just wanting to rant at the structural unfairness that makes positive laws such as this so difficult to take advantage of in practice.

I totally sympathise. I'd like to persuade my DP to share a portion of parental leave but he's reluctant for similar reasons.
I earn a bit more though and have a good pension compared to DP so in my eyes it makes more sense for me to return to work.
I'd really like DP to have some time off because although he's a very competent parent, he rarely has DD by himself whereas I do bulk of childcare at weekends when he's working. He really doesn't get that the only time I have to myself is in the bathroom!

Don't let him get away with it. Didn't he want to have a second one too? I'm really happy about the bonds DS and DP has after his 4 month paternity leave with the added benefit of him also being able to run the home...

Would he do some reading? I gave my partner Shattered (Rebecca Asher) and, while he had been keen to do it anyway, this made him VERY enthusiastic. She talks a lot about the 'well, my job means I can't take time off now' brigade, and DP now calls other men out on this quite a lot.

I actually earn more anyway, so it is financial sense, but he did it despite having just started a new job, which would have been easy to excuse-make around. The benefits have been brilliant as well- he goes back to work in a couple of weeks and has a totally different, more confident relationship with DD.

I think you should stick to your guns and have him take the time off. There is a chance someday it may hurt his career, well welcome to the world that women live in all the time.

Nothing is going to change as long as men don't have to sacrifice anything or make any big changes.

These things have a snowball effect too, if your DH does it then perhaps other men where he works will do it, then no one will get punished for it because it will just be normal.

Yy dreaming.

It might affect his career? Aww diddums, we wouldn't want that would we? Far better that your career is affected (and it will be, even if your work is understanding), along with your body. I mean, it's your stupid idea to have another isn't it? Why should it affect him?

Thanks for the feedback and understanding everyone.

I actually earn a (tiny) bit more than him, so finances don't really matter I this case.

I think I also need to be honest with myself and acknowledge that part of the reason I may let myself be convinced is that deep down, I'm scared he'll hate staying at home with the kids and resent them. I need to work on this, because intellectually I know that I'm just reproducing a damaging gender schema. There's no reason he can't do it as well as I and love it too, he adores DC1. Now I just need to actually start believing it in my gut. TheBeanpole, I may need to get that book for both of us...

Why do you think you are afraid of that?

I don't think that's a very good reason to give in. It's probably not true -- and if it is, better to find out now.

Has he done anything to make you suspect this or is it just your own issue?

I think your DP's reasons for not taking the leave are poor.

But you are not 'reproducing a damaging gender schema.'

There is nothing wrong with a woman taking all the time off with kids. There is something wrong with the men and women who discriminate against her for doing so.

I think you should look at this in terms of your own relationship and the attitude your DH has to you and the kids. That seems to be the issue here.

You are not a better feminist if he takes the leave.

Time off damages most careers. Most bosses are not happy when an employee takes time off and they need to find a replacement.

But interestingly, my personal experience is that men's careers are actually damaged less than women's. My DH is a SAHD, works very part time on some projects every now and then. And everybody thinks he's soooo amazing. He also happily uses the baby as an excuse if he is late delivering - and nobody minds, all customers go 'awww...' instead, and keep ordering work.

The old story - family photo on man's desk means he's a dedicated father.
Family photo on woman's desk - well, clearly her career is not important to her.

I have no reason to think DH wouldn't be great... apart from the fact that he clearly doesn't really want to do it. I think that's what bugs me.

It's a good book Chalala, I sould re-read it now we've done it though to see if it rings true still.

We've also just taken part in a research study on couples who use APL, which has been really interesting- the research focus was on the impact on the relationship, specifically. The researcher said that she was finding that feminism- sometimes in terms of liberal feminism- was a huge motivator for the women. Largely she didn't say what the motivator was from the male partner, which makes me think that women are driving this at the moment.

Having said that, I would totally agree with almondcakes that they're not giving out feminism badges for this. You do what's right for you and your family, but with all options on the table and mindfulness about how your choices might be unconsciously limited or influenced.

Why does him not wanting to do it trump your wanting him to do it though? The status quo doesn't just get to win.

I won't ask what he/you do/does, but I also think we're lucky (well, it's been a conscious choice, and means we'll never be millionaires) that we have chosen to work in bits of the public and voluntary sector where this is positively encouraged. I work closely with a man who just took 3 months APL and does a 4 day compressed week and it never attracts comment. DP's boss (male) took a year of parental leave last year. So we are in a lovely lefty right-on enclave, with friends and family doing similar, and that does make the structural stuff a bit less pertinent to us in that it's less applied to our particular situation.

Just wanted to say it's awesome that you want your DH to take equal time off. More women need to push this, and more men too. It's good for everyone; the woman gets to return to her career sooner, the father gets the opportunity to bond with the baby in the way the mother can, and the child gets some quality time with both parents. Win win win.

All jobs and companies are different, and becoming the person whose face doesn't fit because they are a 'troublemaker' is fine if you're in demand, if you're a bit younger and have lots of opportunities ahead of you. If you're not, if you work in a small industry where things get around, then I have sympathy for men who are effectively bullied into not taking large amounts of parental leave.

These fights have to be won in stages, starting with larger companies with proper HR departments and the public sector, rather than small businesses and the aggressive private sector firms or industries where most people are freelancers. The consequences for some men are harsher than for others.

When an employment tribunal rules that it's sex discrimination to unfairly or constructively dismiss a father who takes parental leave - and who therefore is entitled to an unlimited pay out rather than 70k max - then it will become a lot easier for men to insist on this right. But as far as I know that hasn't happened yet and so employers don't take it as seriously as discriminating against mothers or pregnant women, which of course still happens far too often.

Could he take at least a few weeks, so he does understand what it's like? Surely a couple or three weeks wouldn't damage his career irreperably?

I wouldnt force him if he isnt the type of personality to enjoy it. Dh enjoys being at home much more than me as he finds it easier and can pursue things hes enjoys. I much prefer having a balance of work and home as I enjoy the challenge. I think its best to play to your strengths.

I'm in the same situation. Dp ended up not taking the time we had planned as his department was sold from a big company with good hr to a small company run by dodgy salesmen who were merrily getting rid of all the part time female staff. I do understand that the proposition of taking time off became very different, but I'm still pissed off that we changed our whole plans because we were scared of the consequences for his job

Do women at his firm take leave?

This be another daft question, the latest of many but what jaooens if a woman is exclusively breast feeding? Does the father's leave come later when the baby maybe be starting on solids etc? Or does this only really work with bottle fed babies?

What happens*

Spence

A number of things. At present, the man can only take the leave after 20 weeks - this changes in April, which is good.

The couple decide the split for themselves - so if mother is still BF, she could express, father could bring the baby to her, she could mixed feed etc. Or she could take nine months and him three, so weaning is well underway. Or whatever works.

A v small percentage of mothers are EBF by six months - I forget exactly but I think it's less than 10%

TheBeanPole, part of what I meant was why is this being turned into yet more wifework?

Why should the OP, and presumably other women, be feeling they are somehow failing at something because they haven't convinced their husband to do something.

I don't think we should be judging women as successes or failures based on their ability to manage their husband's decisions.

When I was breastfeeding I was back at work by then so you just express

I agree with the pp that said about him taking holiday - DH did 2 weeks while I did KIT days with DD and that was enough for him to 'get' the relentlessness of it. Noone would frown on a month long honeymoon, maybe he could take just the last month as a compromise?

IA with almondcakes - I'm pretty annoyed that it's up to me to convince DH. Surely the default solution should be that we each take half of the parental leave off, and if either of us wants less/more it's up to them to convince the other?

DH actually works in a quasi-public sector, and one of his colleagues just took two years of ML almost in a row, and came back only part-time. That's apparently fine it would seem!!!

I like the suggestion of a shorter parental leave for him. A few weeks is definitely enough to get the idea