Reasons I can't be a feminist; according to others. . .

[WellnowImFucked]

Because I like and am good at baking.

Because I wear lipstick.

Because I'm straight.

Because OH carries my work bag for me.

And currently number one on my list, 'you can't be a feminist, you always wear such nice shoes'

I'm laugh if it wasn't so fucking sad

I schooled had a heated discussion with a male colleague oncd, he was bemoaning women on nights out not being interested in him. He couldn't get that they might, just possibly, like dressing up (there are conditioning reaosns behind this, but they might genuinely enjoy it). He questioned why would they be all dressed up in their finery if it wasn't to attract the attention of odious toads like him? That's the objectification I object to, personally

I got told by a work colleague that I can't be a feminist because I didn't live through the sixties and seventies and have no idea what it was like

Katee - I share your distaste for this kind of thing, it is a disgrace that women are judged on their attire. However there is no question that much women's attire is far more sexualising than men's. Suits for example are not specifically designed to elicit a sexual response, or change the way the walk, and they cover all of a mans skin except his hands and his head. God i sound like i want women to wear the burkha, i hope you appreciate that i struggle with this somewhat, i don't intend to be rude to people.

I kind of get what you are saying, and there are arguments that heels were designed to make women's arses stick out and make men look all the way up to their vaginas, so historically that was the case. But I know a lot of women, and not a single one, in 2014, puts on a pair of heels thinking "this will make my arsr stick out and make a man look up my smooth legs and start thinking about my vagina". They just like heels. So the onus is on the people doing the objectifying, not the woman to change her clothes.

I like short skirts. I don't like men shouting stuff at me because I am in a short skirt, it's intimidating and aggressive (nb this is not the same as approaching someone because you fancy them). For me to then stop wearing short skirts would be a defeat. The men are the ones who need to change, not me. Wearing heels or a short skirt is not a feminist act, but it doesn't mean I am not a feminist, or am a bad feminist.

That reading Jeanne is suggesting will probably express it better than me...

mark, there's no 'however' about it.

Think about it. Do you imagine we women wake up in the morning and think: 'ooh! I have no preconceptions about the world and perfect control over what's available for me to wear, how people will respond to it, and how I myself am conditioned to interpret its aesthetics?'

Of course we don't.

We buy our clothes in the shops, just like you do. We don't design them ourselves, and we don't get a magic female immunity to cultural expectations about what's suitable and attractive to wear, either.

The shoes thing is a tricky one. I was thinking about it only this week because I was walking from one building to another at work (on a university campus) and noticed a woman walking ahead of me in high-ish stiletto pumps. Now the ground was wet and slightly slippery, and it was COLD, and her legs were bare, so she looked cold, unstable and uncomfortable. "Performing femininity" can be hard work, risky and very uncomfortable.

Cross post.

YY, katee. And the reason men shout at you when you were a short skirt isn't because it's a short skirt and it sexualizes you. It's because society likes to excuse and encourage a certain kind of masculine behaviour by pretending there are female behaviours that license it.

We could perfectly well have a culture where stepping out of the house with a spring of rosemary pinned to your elbow served the same function, and we'd all be going on about how we just like rosemary dammit, and men would be saying solemnly, 'yes, but it can't be argued but that women's herb-wearing habits are far more sexualising than men's, just look at this sensible parsley we stuff into our ears'.

(My brain throws up weird analogies when I'm tired.)

Hmmm - i'm not sure about the sprig of rosemary thing tbh. The question of whether there are behaviours that licence it is true, some men (and women) think that way, of that there is no question. I suppose I think that dressing in sexualising clothes has become so much the norm that women do not even recognise it as such any more, but men do - "why is she wearing high heels and not wearing anything on her legs in this weather" no one would suggest it is practical. I find it hard to see how you can reject almost all of the values that lead to the male dominated society we live in and keep the others. I.e. get rid of the violence, the entitlement and all the rest, but we'll keep dressing like dolls and sticking our bums out when we walk thank you very much, it doesn't really sound like much of a win. This all sounds terrible when i write it down, sorry everyone.

Damn right it sounds terrible

Women don't make decisions in a vacuum though.

People chose to wear 'fashionable' clothes because they like to feel good about themselves. People feel good when they get the approval of others. Dressing in these clothes help women feel confident and they get genuine compliments from other women and men for dressing in this way.

A minority of men will then choose to wolf whistle/comment sexually/objectify that woman.

he was bemoaning women on nights out not being interested in him. He couldn't get that they might, just possibly, like dressing up (there are conditioning reaosns behind this, but they might genuinely enjoy it). He questioned why would they be all dressed up in their finery if it wasn't to attract the attention of odious toads like him?

As I once explained to a male acquaintance in a group of people I was with - well, I was young and a bit pissed, and less than tactful, and I think my words were along the lines of, "Yes, I am on the pull, but you're certainly not in the running!" Which, it later turned out, was pretty much what the man I was interested in was thinking about me, but such is life - I accepted that just because I'm attracted to someone, that doesn't mean they are attracted to me, or have any obligation to somehow satisfy my attraction - it's my problem, not theirs. Whereas some men seem to think it's your problem if you don't fancy them, and you do have some sort of obligation to them because they find you attractive, regardless of what you think about them.

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As for the sprig of rosemary - it's a herb I associate with remembrance and death, so if I saw someone wearing a sprig, I'd assume they'd recently lost someone, but I'd also be wondering about it, as not many people seem to know about "rosemary for remembrance" today. But that's not your point, I know - I just think you'd have to pick on another plant - I'm sure there must be some which already has links to sex, or at least fertility. In any case, I'm not sure a sprig of herbs in itself would be the same - I think a lot of sexualised clothing works because it is revealing and/or enhancing sexual areas of the body. It would have to be shoved down your cleavage, rather than pinned to your elbow.

I like the idea of stuffing parsley in people's ears, though. Especially if they're annoying.

I don't follow you at all, mark.

I also don't think you actually understood me correctly.

EBear - no, but my whole point is, for us elbows aren't sexual. But for the UK, neither is the nape of the neck (used to be considered v. sexy in Japan) or a high forehead (likewise in medieval England).

Ditto the point that rosemary has no association with sex/fertility, but it would be quite possible for a culture to develop those associations. And, if it did, the pattern of women performing femininity using the socially-designated props, and of men and women condemning it while failing to see the props are more or less arbitrary, would continue.

And the reason men shout at you when you were a short skirt isn't because it's a short skirt and it sexualizes you.

I am not convinced of this, my feeling is that womens clothes do sexualize them, if clothes did not sexualize people ann summers et al. ought to to be told. What the particular conventions are for a society is not all the relevant. Women today dress in wildly impractical clothes for everyday purposes, it is the impracticality of it and the time and monetary cost spent achieving it which seems depressing and pointless if your aim is not to elicit any sort of sexual response or be objectified. Why do sex workers dress in short skirts and high heels "putting the goods on display" when according to you they could just as well wear jeans and a pair of all stars ? Now obviously the sexualization happens because of the observer of all this, but I think it would be reasonable to assume that short skirts are more likely to elicit sexual responses than track pants. Acting on or taking heed of the sexual response is the responsibility of the person experiencing it of course, and I'm not by any means saying that women should not be able to wear whatever they want, I suppose i think if i were a women i would feel that high heeled shoes are a bit sexist i would resent wearing them especially as they seem to hurt your feet.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist

Thank you for taking the time to write the response, we are all shaped by our culture indeed.

You really think I would only wear a short skirt to elicit sexual responses? That is depressing.

Of course i don't think that - incase I haven't been clear, what I think is that womens fashion has normalised sexualised dress to the point most women don't even recognise it as such.

"pointless if your aim is not to elicit any sort of sexual response or be objectified." suggests you can't imagine any other reason a woman would dress in a certain way, ergo she is doing it with the aim of being objectified, amd anything that happens, well she brought it upon herself. I would suggest being more imaginative.

mark, you're not following me at all.

I actually think you might not even be reading me, either - I do hope that's not the case, but I think maybe if you were to read my posts again slowly, it'd help. I know you've said you don't really know what you're talking about here, and I know that's a tough position to be in, but it's kinda frustrating interacting with someone who seems determine to disagree without listening to what's being said.

By the way, Mark, I've had catcalls wearing short skirts in a nightclub. I have also been harrased wearing non-tight, bootleg jeans and a black, high neck baggy jumper standing on a train platform minding my own business. So my clothes make naff all difference, therefore I am not going to curtail my choices to try and stop being objectified. It's out of my hands.

Btw, this bit of your post 'when according to you they could just as well wear jeans and a pair of all stars ?' is really rude.

I never said any such thing. You've completely misinterpreted the argument, and decided 'hmm, I think she means x. So I'll pretend she said it now and then ask her to justify it.'

It's called a 'straw man' argument and it is intensely irritating.

In fact, I feel more likely to be harrased for not wearing feminine clothes, it's less "oi oi sexy!" and more "you're a fat lesbian!". Both make me feel like shit, the first one marginally less so.

The same colleague who moaned about women not wanting to fuck him even though they were wearing nice clothes once said to me that I should wear heels to work (a physical admin job) because they look nicer and presumably please him more. Um, no.

suggests you can't imagine any other reason a woman would dress in a certain way, ergo she is doing it with the aim of being objectified, amd anything that happens, well she brought it upon herself. I would suggest being more imaginative.

Errm - this is a straw man and infact the opposite of what i am saying which was that women do it basically without thinking what these items of attire were designed for.

I admit i do not really know what I am talking about but i've done enough research to know that a number of women feel the same way about it and they also call themselves feminists, so I am not really out on a limb all that much here. Infact i didn't start thinking about this until i read a feminist view on it.