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Feminism: Sex & gender discussions

Now the term FGM is cissexist? WTAF?

232 replies

NormaStanleyFletcher · 28/10/2014 21:30

elegantgatheringofwhitesnows.com/?p=2069

By the very brilliant Louise Pennington.

How can they try to erase the lived experience of violence against women by banning a discriptive term for what is actually happening?

"It is not “cissexist” to talk about the biological reality of women’s bodies and the damage done to them within a capitalist-patriarchy. Frankly, even the suggestion that it is “cissexist” demonstrates a fundamental inability to actually understand the reality of lives of women and girls in our world."

OP posts:
LineRunner · 28/10/2014 23:26

So, are they ok talking about breast cancer, seeing as it can affect anyone?

CheeseEqualsHappiness · 28/10/2014 23:29

I get her point that some men can have abortions etc but I don't think this means abortion isn't a women's issue. I really feel for people who don't fit into the perceived norms, but I can't help but feel there is so much hanging on getting the right words out that the issues are ignored

heartisaspade · 28/10/2014 23:31

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fluffling · 28/10/2014 23:32

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fluffling · 28/10/2014 23:33

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YonicScrewdriver · 28/10/2014 23:35

Sad CCP has left twitter.

heartisaspade · 28/10/2014 23:41

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noblegiraffe · 28/10/2014 23:49

I have no idea what's going on here. I get that gender is a societal construct and some people's gender identity doesn't agree with the sex of their genitalia. So they are saying that male/female only refers to someone's gender identity and what they choose to identify as.

So what are we supposed to use to identify a group of people by their sexual/reproductive organs? Do they also complain that smear test reminders are only sent out to those who tick the female check box?

Is the complaint that they don't want male/female to refer to sex at all?

LineRunner · 29/10/2014 00:05

I am thinking that they don't see biological sex, or indeed age, as relevant to their gender identifications.

Trouble is, a hell if a lot more people than them do see it as relevant. It is medically relevant, and for me ontologically relevant, and I am entitled to that view.

ZombiePuffinsAreREAL · 29/10/2014 00:06

Yes, Yonic. She wrote a brave blog and a bunch of people have destroyed her.

Pap smears are For people, not women. Presumably prostate exams are as well, but there seems to be a level of silence about that.

Noblegiraffe - in a nutshell. Sex organs don't have genders in the same way as hands or legs don't. Penises can be male or female despite not having genders vaginas similar. Your gender is whatever you say it is. Biological sex is essentialism. So, basing or aiming services at people who have XX or XY chromosomes is cissexist and problematic. And gender essentialist.

I have no dramas with people being who they want to be. Have GRS, don't have GRS, your call, but don't appropriate little girls' pain for a minority political campaign.

LineRunner · 29/10/2014 00:07

And I may be talking out of my arse but it's my arse and not someone else's political property to redefine.

YonicScrewdriver · 29/10/2014 00:26

I don't think we should rename it.

This is something that happens to little girls, pre pubescent girls, girls who live in countries where GRS is, I assume, almost impossible. These girls will remain girls, will grow into women, with mutilated genitals and painful and risky sex and childbirth in their future.

This mutilation will never happen to a child with a penis, even if that child later grows up considering themselves to be a woman.

I don't get it.

ElephantsNeverForgive · 29/10/2014 00:36

Sorry I'm a biologist and as far as I'm concerned you have to be female to have an abortion.

What you mentally identify yourself as is medically irrelevant, unless you have altered anatomy due to an intersex condition.

That doesn't mean abortion is totally a women's issue. Every aborted foetus has a father, who may or may not care and may or may not by effected by the abortion too, but ultimately it is a female body carrying that child and it's that females ultimate choice weather to give birth.

Thumbscrewswitch · 29/10/2014 02:00

You know - I am very much of a "live and let live" mindset when it comes to trans-gender and intergender and every other sort of gender people - but they are really going to shoot themselves in the foot if they carry on this sort of pickiness in regards to problems that have been affecting women for centuries, if not millennia.

I can't think of a clever analogy, but it reminds me a little of new posters to MN who start threads saying "this is a very old fashioned looking site, why don't you all try xyz?" - they're new to the party but want to change it as soon as they arrive, iyswim. Except this "cissexism" thing is really attacking the wrong people, isn't it?

I don't know, I'm still not well enough versed in all this to form a proper coherent argument, but oh it feels SOOOO wrong.

Mumraathenoisylion · 29/10/2014 02:22

I also can't form a coherent argument right now but I can mark my place by saying WTAF????

I'm going to do some more reading on this matter.....

HowsTheSerenity · 29/10/2014 02:27

I am intrigued but confused.
This is all new to me.
I've never heard of cisgender before.

I understand that gender and sex are two different things. You can pick one but not the other. You can change how you look but obviously you can alter your genetic makeup.

So if I understand correctly there are those people who think abortion and Pap smears are for anyone who identifies as female regardless of whether they have a uterus or not?

Is that correct?

Thumbscrewswitch · 29/10/2014 02:34

No, I think you have it backwards (but I'm no expert!) - it's more about people who have a uterus but who don't identify as female, but have somehow had intercourse resulting in a pregnancy and then an abortion because they still have functional female reproductive organs. So this would be more the province of transgender males, I guess.

Hairylegs47 · 29/10/2014 04:23

Words fail me.
Disgusted doesn't even cover how I feel about this.
What's next? Hiding/ignoring any thing which may 'exclude' anyone as they'll feel an ism?
I'm small and fat, I think the 'tall or slim elitists' need to wake up and realise my issues. (Heavy sarcasm)
Some issues, like the abuse of children for crying out loud, are 'bigger' than the pain of idiots who only care about themselves.

Good grief, how many more little GIRLS will it take before this evil abuse is recognised and wiped out.

FloraFox · 29/10/2014 08:10

hows it's easy to be confused because it doesn't make any sense and contradicts very obvious material reality.

This sort of transactivist does not believe you choose a gender and that identity is not a choice. They believe that sex is a social construct as much as gender is and that bodies are neither male nor female. The only thing that determines gender is identity and sexual body parts are irrelevant. They believe that transwomen are and always have been female.

They believe abortion and Pap smears are not women's issues because men (transmen) need them too and that prostate health is not a man's issue because transwomen need them too. The use of women/female for these matters excludes transwomen (ie does not put transwomen's feelings and need for validation from women of their womanhood) at the centre of every issue.

This statement is just the logical extension of these principals which are actually widely held on many feminist sites. Challenging or criticising this view would get you banned on many feminist websites.

HowsTheSerenity · 29/10/2014 08:29

So transwomen want pap smears for their non existent cervix and transmen want prostate exams?
Ok.
Yeah, this seems a bit over the top.

HowsTheSerenity · 29/10/2014 08:30

Thanks Flora.

LineRunner · 29/10/2014 08:33

But if they've always been female, then there's nothing to 'trans'. So why do they use that word to describe themselves?

SunnaStrangeInTheNeighbourhood · 29/10/2014 08:38

It's like that scene from The Life of Brian. Ludicrous.

Zazzles007 · 29/10/2014 08:45

These trans-activists are making themselves look like a bunch of irrational nutters Confused. It appears their objective is to silence real women - how does that make them any different from sexist/misogynistic males?

noblegiraffe · 29/10/2014 08:52

If sex organs don't matter when it comes to gender identity, why do so many trams people seek surgery? It seems that they've not even managed to convince their own community of that argument.

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