How much time and money do you think goes in to being a woman?

[FuckOffFerret]

Most women I know wear make up. They get their hair dyed. They shave or wax, have their lips/eyebrows done. Now that fanjo hair has gone the way of the dodo how much do people spend on that?

The average "groomed" woman must spend a fortune and hours of their week to look the way they do :( It's depressing how much of our lives (and out money) is just going down the pan to be seen as acceptable.

Idealist, I sort of loved those pictures as I was looking at them (love old photos) but as I finished I just felt really sad. It's one thing to imagine those women dress in a hijab as a choice but to see that actually they were quite happy to show themselves to the world is so sad. Basically half the population has lost all freedom and no one gives a fuck.

Is the proliferation of tattoos a part of the same phenomenon, or something separate? They seem far more common than they were twenty years ago, or even ten.

I am a hospital doctor, I think that makes the professional dress code easier. Men and women need to be smartly and professionally dressed. Only consultants wear suits or dresses everyone else wears dark trousers and button down shirts rolled to the elbow and no tie. We all have to have short clean nails (5 mins a day?), clean hair (tied back if over the collar) and industrial deodorant (hospitals are hot and the job involves running around). In a&e or ITU it's even easier we all wear surgical scrubs. Most girls don't wear make up and most of the lads wear moisturiser. I expect both sees shave where it is socially acceptable to do so. But I really can't think of a female expense.

At first I was going to say I don't feel pressure to do these things as I will happily leave the house without make up etc, but then I realised if I'm due to go out for a meal or to a function etc I will feel I "have" to put on some make up and a nice outfit or people will think I haven't made an effort! Quite sad really! Then again, I guess men are expected to put on a shirt, have a shave etc but I suppose nowhere near the standard of grooming women are expected to do.

Out of interest, does anyone know when all this grooming and preening started? Like where it dates back to? I'm sure cave women weren't expected to spend an hour every morning making sure they looked "nice".

I think it changes constantly blueberry. Men wearing makeup and heels wouldn't have been unheard back in the day. But for some reason for the past 200 years or so, it seems to be women taking the brunt of ridiculous clothing and make up and shoes.

I point blank refuse to wear high heels these days - I honestly don't see how I can be expected to wear something that injures my feet while my DP can just wear nice comfy flat shoes.

Do you think it's more of a gradual thing then? My initial thought was since the media took hold, but I think it's before then?

If you look at other cultures in different parts of the world, male make-up and preening can be far more prevalent. The Masai, for example, must spend hours preparing to go to the pub....

I've just spent £25 on a multipack of two bras from M&S, I imagine that qualifies as a female expense? I'm expecting my period soon so I've stocked up on tampax, liners, paracetamol with codeine, ibuprofen and aqua-ban. I do resent paying VAT on sanitary towels etc, I've never understood how we let them get away with that.

i think of myself as not spending all that much on my appearance but in reality it's still much more than dp and it goes beyond "clean and tidy"

• cut my own hair (not as drastic as it sounds - i have shoulder-length wavy hair and just trim it every few months when it starts to look untidy), but i increasingly feel like i should go to a salon and get a "grown up" haircut. despite the fact that the handful of times i have gone i have come out feeling like i don't look like "me" (some may think that's a good thing ). don't use any product on it aside from shampoo or conditioner

• makeup - new full set maybe once a year? i wear tinted moisturiser, mascara, tiny bit of eyeliner, cover up dark eye circles. i wear makeup if i socialise in the evening, for meetings or if i go into the office, nothing for working from home or at the weekend

• depilation - if armpits/legs/bikini line are being bared in a place where i care what people think

• never have beauty treatments or massages - hate being touched by people i don't know very well

I struggle for time (commute, work FT, small DC) and have cut out a lot of this stuff because but stupidly compare myself negatively with other women both at work and on the school run! Hair dye, for example, seems "standard".

frequently hear friends say things about the importance of "taking care of/feeling good about yourself" (meaning weight and grooming), "not letting yourself go", and people who have clearly spent a lot of time or money on appearance and weight loss are complimented.

"Letting yourself go" really pisses me off. What does it even mean?! (I know what it's intended to mean it's just a ridiculous phrase).

Thinking about heels for a second, it is a known fact that they are bad for health and can lead to issues with women's feet basically being crippled. How can it be legal to insist on them?

I think it's utterly disgusting that companies can get away with insisting on them. My friend works for a travel agents and part of her uniform is high heels. When she was heavily pregnant she asked if she could instead wear smart flat shoes to which she was told by her boss that it was company policy to wear heels. She turned up the next day in flats and was given a formal warning! Disgusting! Surely there should be some law against this!

Ferret - I agree with you about magazines too. I really think the less time I look in mirrors the happier I am. And the less I focus on what I look like the more interesting I become.

I don't think you can avoid the pressure. I've just spent £20 on makeup which I do every now and again when I look at myself in the mirror and go "god messy, you look a state!". Sometimes I feel I have to put a certain amount of effort into getting to this stage where I feel I can go out into the world without feeling embarrassed.

I hate feeling that way but there it is.

Messy - I agree that you can't avoid the pressure. Even those who don't wear any make up must still feel some sort of pressure, even if they don't act on that.

I probably do similar amounts of appearance-effort to MrNC, and with many friends being goths, there's less gender difference than with other people I know.

MrNC: 6-weekly haircuts, daily 10 min to shave face, moisturiser.
Me: haircut about twice a year. Slightly more hair to brush. A couple minutes on working days getting earrings and necklace that work with my neckline. Dash of lipstick so I look less washed out. Ten seconds a week to shave under arms, few mins to depilate legs about twice a year. Most of the extra time for me is finding new clothes that fit, especially footwear. Thank goodness for Bravissimo, and if only there were websites where I could enter my measurements and order trousers that are guaranteed to fit, like MrNC can.

There's definitely social pressure regarding makeup - at least my workplace goes for natural looks so even senior women just need to look groomed not made up, but if I avoid magazines and makeup areas of stores, I don't notice it.

Nearly 20 years ago, MrNC told me that one thing he loves about me is the fact that I can get ready for a ball in under 10 minutes. Sensible chap. Helped my confidence no end.

Dash of lipstick so I look less washed out.

Sorry just to pick up on this, but not picking on you IYSWIM? It makes me sad because it is always women who say that. We're no more washed out than men, but because we are constantly exposed to women wearing makeup when we don't wear make up it can feel that way. :(

Totally agree Ferret - though in my case it's also because my colouring has totally changed since pregnancy and it helps me feel my 'usual' self, rather than so white people ask if I'm about to faint. Especially on days when I'm really tired or in pain, it makes me feel better. The fact that we're expected to attend work and look healthy even when we aren't is a whole nother issue, though I suspect it affects women more than men.
Sadly the world seems going more towards pressuring men to use lipstick

Well, for me it's a shower, deoderant, clean clothes and I'm good to go. Mostly wear trousers, so no need to shave anywhere (and I'm increasing trying to go unshaven so as to give DS the message that it's an optional extra, not something women have to do). But then I work in an environment (research science) where there's no work pressure to look good, and I'm nearly 50 so no longer on the pull, so no need to dress to try to look sexually attractive (besides which, any attempt to do so would come across as gilding a turd - face for radio, n'all that). It's very liberating.

I agree with the OP in principle, but not personally - DH 'grooms' much more than me, but I realise I am blessed with little in the way of body hair so me not doing anything about it is not resisting any kind of pressure, but kind of 'conforming' to is by default

Tbh, rather than the pressure to look good to be 'allowed' to feel good about yourself is huge on women and rather than that trend lessening it's getting worse and spilling over to men IMO.
Many more waxed (male) chests about, naked genitalia seem to be popular in the under 25s (don't ask me how I know that, but I do), moisturisers in 'manly' black or similar pots marketed at men, eyebrow shaping etc etc.

Growing up I never got in to the habit of using make-up, now I'm 48 and not very good at it, so I don't really bother - v liberating. As a teenager I did think a bit of eyeliner was v fetching on the slightly gothy boy I fancied though.