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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Have you seen the Emma Watson Speech?

372 replies

Sallystyle · 22/09/2014 07:19

Awesome

www.upworthy.com/her-voice-might-tremble-but-emma-watsons-message-is-strong-and-clear?c=ufb1

I don't know how old it is or anything but it is really good

OP posts:
BertieBotts · 25/09/2014 09:11

I think youre probably depressingly right Basil :( Sigh.

PetulaGordino · 25/09/2014 09:14

good posts basil. i suppose the less they want to give it up, the more it is worth having

Beachcomber · 25/09/2014 09:18

Hmmm. I've just watched Emma give her speech, had only read the transcript previously.

First of all, well done to her, and I can see how sincere and earnest she is. I hope she and this project manage to achieve what they want and get some men to actually give a shit about female oppression.

I get that it seems like a good idea to try to stir the men into action by saying "you and your sons will benefit from this too". Which, to my mind, is either pretty cynical (we need men but they will only give a shit if they think this will benefit them so let's dangle a carrot of good stuff for them if they get with the programme); or it is pretty misogynistic - because it sounds rather as though "gender equality" is as much as a problem for men and boys as it is for girls and women.

Except we know it isn't. Yeah, patriarchy hurts men too, but it doesn't oppress them. It isn't boys being married off as children and having their genitals severely mutilated and having children too young and developing fistula or dying in childbirth. It isn't boys who make up the majority of prostitutes and victims of sex trafficking. It isn't boys who are being aborted or drowned in buckets in their millions in Asia due to being born a low status sex. It isn't boys who are being sexualized and othered and considered and treated as low status sexual, reproductive and domestic servants. Etc fucking etc...

I don't want to diss Emma and this campaign, I wish them luck (and she will need the strength of the woman who has well and truly put her head over the parapet, even if she was waving a flag with menz we care about you spelt out on it). I would however really liked her to have said something about male privilege. Specifically that if men want to stop being hurt by patriarchy, they are going to have to give up some of that lovely privilege - the one that most of them aren't even aware they have.

I also wished she had framed things as being about female oppression and structural sexism rather than "gender equality" - a concept which rather disappears the hierarchical and gendered nature of sexism.

It's a bit depressing when a social justice and freedom movement needs to appeal to its oppressors by telling them they will benefit from giving up the oppressing. It also isn't strictly true, men have much more to lose than they do to gain.

Still, good on her for speaking up and getting involved. She's only young and I think it takes time for a lot of us to develop more radical perspectives of feminism. If she gets young people on board that is a good thing. I just hope the message of this movement is going to stay focused on the massive global structural injustices and violence done to women and not become (or be hijacked as) WHATABOUTERY...

tribpot · 25/09/2014 12:49

So ... the 4chan threat has revealed in fact to be a hoax by a marketing company. What the fucking fuck.

PetulaGordino · 25/09/2014 12:53

i know, helpful, right?

AskBasil · 25/09/2014 13:14

Thing is, the hoax was entirely believable. Which is why people believed it.

Wht a bunch of tossers that company consists of though.

SurelyYoureJokingMrFeynman · 25/09/2014 13:59

Weirder and weirder. The BBC tried the contact info for the supposed marketing company and none of it is working.

What sort of PR firm can't be contacted?

tribpot · 25/09/2014 14:18

So maybe the hoax is a hoax? Or the marketing company have had to shut up shop because they're being inundated with abuse for their appalling strategy?

Thumbwitch · 25/09/2014 14:19

What a bunch of sick twats. Angry

PetulaGordino · 25/09/2014 14:23

that's the thing basil - there's no need to fake the behaviour of (some) 4chan users, they've demonstrated it on their own. all this does is give them the moral high ground

BrewsterToo · 25/09/2014 14:40

Well put, Beachcomber! While the way EW proposes to deal with inequality has its flaws, as you have eloquently pointed out, I think her effort is laudable and judging by the general reaction, successful (at least for now).

A lot of men and women who belong in AskBasil's "don't want to be sexist and I'm all for equality, but have never considered how unequal things actually are and/or don't want to call myself a feminist because (insert myth)"-camp might now realise the equality they say they want may be better achieved if they did openly support feminism and challenge sexism when they see it happening. Whether they will act on it is another matter, but I think she may have created a group of people who are more open to the ideas of feminism, which can only be a good thing. The other groups (the lip-service group, the defensives, the MRA's) will be far harder to get on board.

I hope it will be a step forward to achieving some sort of critical mass if more people are more openly supportive of challenging sexist practices. They will be chipping away at patriarchy, even if they don't know that's what they're doing. That enlightenment may follow, which would be even more helpful, but so far I'm happy to get more people on board.

Thumbwitch · 25/09/2014 14:55

Oh I meant to say as well - good posts, Askbasil - if a bit depressing! :(

TheBeanpole · 25/09/2014 23:39

Beachcomber, have you seen this blog?www.blackgirldangerous.org/2014/09/im-really-emma-watsons-feminism-speech-u-n/

It helped me articulate why I felt uncomfortable with the speech quite well, although she does ask rather a lot of Emma...

Thumbwitch · 26/09/2014 00:28

That's a good blog article. And yes, she makes good points.

The saving grace, maybe, of Emma's speech is that it has a lot more people talking about it than previous speeches about gender equality than I've seen before.

Another point that crossed my mind - does anyone think that Emma wrote that speech all by herself, completely unaided and unvetted? cos I don't.

ApocalypseThen · 26/09/2014 06:21

Well I'm a bit dismayed to read the number of contributors around now who can get behind this new man centered feminism. And who are referring to this speech everywhere as though it really has turned any man's mind on feminism. It hasn't. The Ally Fogg reaction is the genuine man's view on this. All her speech has done is make women who aren't comfortable if men aren't in charge a little happier.

But I can't see any reason why Emma should not have written her speech. She is a bright, articulate woman and a graduate, I think, so presumably she can structure an argument?

MyEmpireOfDirt · 26/09/2014 06:47

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheSameBoat · 26/09/2014 07:21

That blackgirldangerous blog is 100% correct of course. But I suspect EW knows all that stuff already and is just using the softly softly "menz we believe in your humanity" line in order to be pragmatic.

Thumbwitch · 26/09/2014 07:27

I'm quite sure that she wrote the original speech and I'm equally sure that someone would have looked it over and suggested politic amendments and adjustments. I don't believe that she would have been allowed to give an unvetted speech, sorry.

7Days · 26/09/2014 07:38

The old pragmatism vs principle debate. Tough one.

TheBeanpole · 26/09/2014 07:42

It will have been vetted and probably bits re-written. I've been involved in much smaller UN events and the focus on messaging is...intense. Especially on the keynotes.

PetulaGordino · 26/09/2014 07:43

Cynically I'm not sure whether she would have been able to make any other kind of speech. Not because she's not capable or intelligent, but because of that particular platform and considering the responses she might have had otherwise.

PetulaGordino · 26/09/2014 07:45

X-post with beanpole. That was what I assumed. I don't think she would have been allowed to make a different kind of speech

ApocalypseThen · 26/09/2014 07:49

I don't believe that she would have been allowed to give an unvetted speech, sorry.

I don't think anyone suggested that anyone would be allowed to make an unvetted speech. But I just don't believe that she's a half wit who just read a prepared statement, and I don't think it's fair to suggest that.

YonicScrewdriver · 26/09/2014 07:50

Yy - she's a UN spokesperson, her speech was launching a UN campaign, of course the UN would have signed it off.

YonicScrewdriver · 26/09/2014 07:51

Apocalypse, no one said she's a half wit.

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