How did you come to see a need for feminism?

[JeanneDeMontbaston]

For me, it's been very gradual. I don't think it would have occured to me not to call myself a feminist as a teenager, but it also wasn't really on my radar. I also went through the 'yay, empowerfullisement, post-feminism' stage at university.

I think now my stance is fairly radical (and I think MN is very radical in some ways, eg., the lack of tolerance for rape myths at least in FWR, and the awareness of a need for women-only space). I know that I have to tone things down to explain anything to my family, which is a bit sad. But it all makes me more and more aware we really do need feminism. I don't know how much that's because sexism is more overt now than it was a few years ago, and how much it's because there's finally a backlash against diluted fun-feminism.

Anyway, discussing this on the pub, justtherightbullets and I figured a thread might be nice, to talk about how we became aware of feminism.

the elephant in the room is that if I were who I am now when I met dp I wouldn't have got together with him. I had no idea that there were men who do housework properly and I had no idea that I would be unable to contain my annoyance about housework. I had no idea that I could ask for more. I left two abusive relationships in a row and found dp very charming because he is clean, polite, and pays his way. That would not have been enough today, although it was 10 years ago.

pacific - aww! Well, erm, sorry to disappoint, but yes, that annoying newbie back in 2009 was me.

Cross posted.

Scary thought, vezzie.

Not the same at all, but I am really noticing now I'm divorcing DH, how most non-feminist friends/family see that issue. I had an abusive boyfriend previously, and my dad is very much your stereotypical 'I don't see dirt' kind of person. Everyone tells me how lucky I am to have DH, who is honestly a pretty decent feminist with only a few 'minor' drawbacks.

I feel there is a strong social tendency to guilt-trip women who have 'good-enough' men. DH is a darling in many ways, but actually, I do deserve to be genuinely happy. And that is still, really, seen as a selfish activity by so many.

It's been building for me for a LONG time.

My mum, who I love and is a wonderful mum, is very sexist in some ways. She ingrained a lot in me and my sisters. She is the product of a highly abusive 1940s/50's upbringing and family, with a violent dad. I won't blame her for her opinions, I don't like them, at all, but I understand why she thinks the way she does.

Today I walked past our local shopping centre car park at 8.15 am. With my dog. In trackies and a hoody, yknow, real sexy like. It's being resurfaced. Five men in hi vis vests stood in a semi circle and one said, "morning sexy tittys" to me. I responded with a dirty look. I was embarrassed and angry. All five laughed at me and I was called a fat minging slag as I walked away. That's why I'm a feminist.

That's it, TooOld, it's not just the original harrassment but the way men who are strangers to each other will back each other up on your response to it.

When I was about 25 I was walking along a road and as I drew level with a man walking the other way, just as he passed, he said very quietly in my ear something absolutely filthy, and carried on walking without breaking stride. I was furious and shouted something after him and a completely unrelated man, old and grey haired, shook his head at me, looked me straight in the eye and said "nasty girl, you're a nasty girl". He honestly thought he had a quasi-paternal right to police my manners - and make sure that men like the first one get to do whatever they like without even the feeblest reprisals

LRD, I have been appalled by the anti-feminist treatment some of my friends have had from their parents vis a vis their men. It all seems to come from a place of "be realistic, you won't get a better one."

this may or not be the case, but you might also do without one. this seems to be unthinkable.

One of the confusions I have about misogyny is how much some men want to have us around when they patently loathe us. I always found it confusing when I was a child and was being tormented, that the abuse centred around how shit and annoying I was (I was usually the youngest and often got picked on) yet when I decided to end it by removing myself from these people who so loudly didn't want me around, ruining their fun, they would go to great lengths to hunt me out and carry on the teasing and humiliation. I understand why men like having domestic servants, that is obvious, but I do not understand any people (the children who did this to me were as likely to be girls as boys) who find abuse a source of pleasure. It is a horrible thought that it is the case that this is so, as it is the only way to explain the great lengths that patriarchal society will go to make sure that the status quo where women are largely powerless against abuse by men, is maintained.

So this thing of just removing yourself from the influence of someone who wants to abuse you is enormously powerful. it doesn't feel like much - I only want this boundary around this very small thing, myself, and I am more than happy to leave your equivalent unbreached - but the fact that you want it, and you want it inviolable, is enraging, to some.

The sad thing about me and DP is that he is not a person who takes any pleasure at all in any kind of cruelty, and is not in the category, remotely, of men who enjoy abuse. In general, he is not interested in power. He is very interested in my well being and instigates intellligent, kind, sensitive conversations with me about things like my health issues, my creative aspirations, etc. It is very sad that I find these sometimes very unexpected, and am not inclined to instigate them myself, or see him as quite the true ally of the heart that he would like to be, just because I can't believe that someone who completely wishes me well would have been so cavalier about my labour and resources. It was done so thoughtlessly and now I don't know how to find my way back.

Vezzie, you write beautifully. So much of what you've said chimes with me.

DH and I are severely on the rocks at the moment, mainly due to the same sort of issues. He is a kind, intelligent man but he has been so so selfish that I am now at the point where I feel I can't continue with him because I simply don't trust him. He claims to love me and to want the best for me but, as I see it, he simply cannot override his sense of privilege and because of that he regularly behaves as though I am lesser than he, he regularly disregards my wishes, he regularly suits himself at my expense. And now I'm thinking, what's the point?

I said to him recently, if we split up my life will improve. I won't have another adult to clean up after, he will be forced to take the children out on his own for long periods of time (as of yet, he has not once had the two children for an entire day on his own), I won't have to worry about getting pregnant (I do not ever want another child with him, given his total lack of support after DD was born), I can eat what I want (he is a very picky eater, and I have accommodated this; when he complained about a cottage pie I made recently, that was a very large straw in a pile of last straws), I can watch what I want, I can sit in bed and read without him wanting me in the same room (supposedly because he likes spending time with me, to me it just feels controlling), I don't have to have his mother to stay (nice as she is, I'm sick of her), I can just run my own fecking life for once.

Why am I staying? You guessed it, for the children. And because I don't want to have to explain myself over and over and over to people who think DH is a good un because he actually changes a nappy now and again.

cailin, sorry to hear that you are severely on the rocks. We aren't that bad: I do have my own space. Since the end of my second maternity leave I have worked in London, dp took 9 months off to SAHD and then took a local job which means he is the rock at home and does much more day to day child stuff and picks up the pieces if / when the childminder goes flaky. I really appreciate this and it does mean that even when we are both there, the childcare situation is much more equitable because they are as inclined to go to him as to me.

BUT

he thinks he has first dibs on weekend lie ins because he does the breakfast shift in the week (because I leave the house while he is still in bed)

he doesn't clean or tidy properly and I can't use the kitchen without cleaning it both before and after

AND THE WORST

he doesn't really respect my POV, often, when we disagree. He isn't great at listening when he thinks he knows what he is talking about better than I do, and he doesn't, and the reason why is because it is about some boring shit that I haven't bored him with. He will visibly tune out when I try to talk to him about things that he thinks are trivial (and now I don't even try), and then crash into the situation later making all kinds of stupid ad hod decisions that make more work for me. and doesn't really grasp that there are things that I just get better than him - his automatic assumption of seniority / superiority is really wearing because I feel I have to smirk and charm and negotiate my way into every possibility of opposing him (especially when I just want to shout STOP TALKING ABOUT BUYING THINGS LIKE WARDROBES AND HOLIDAYS WHILE I AM JUST HOPING TO GET TO THE END OF THE MONTH VAGUELY IN THE BLACK or at least the legitimate overdraft limit)

he thinks anything I do is de facto easy. I am kind of sick of hearing about the difficulties of looking after 2 small children when I was treated so patronisingly when I struggled (but kept going!) on maternity leave.

And I still struggle that he thinks he is better than me when he will never, ever, ever know what it is like to not sleep more than 4 hours in a row in a year. He will never know what I felt like when I was bfing and I will never get his real admiration for what I did and how well I kept going, considering how I felt.

Thanks vezzie. I've started a thread about my situation (inspired by your eloquent description of your situation) so I'd appreciate your input there if you have a chance.

My DH is very similar to yours in the sense that he feels if he does childcare for four hours he has done the hardest thing ever, whereas when I do forty hours of childcare a week it's just normal and to be expected.

cailin im so sorry to hear this.

Thanks Darkest.

Caitlin

Thanks ABland.

calindana, I started a long reply on your other thread, then RL intervened and I lost it.
I did not have anything much else to say than anybody else; really just wanted to validate your position: I entirely understand and sympathise with where you are coming from.

Now I don't understand why I posted this here and not on your thread… ?

"he will never, ever, ever know what it is like to not sleep more than 4 hours in a row in a year"

This. This is exactly it.

Just keep getting on with it, as that's what you do, don't make a major thing about it, don't whine. Because when your DC need you, they need you, so you find it in yourself to keep going. You find it somewhere, you don't use the DC to make a point, you accept that the world becomes a bit smaller when you become a mother.

I went back to work when DD was 5.5 months. She's 9 months now and still hasn't slept through (not even close) and I still night bf. I commute into London every day to do a very stressful job. I get on with it because that's what you do. DH is very supportive but he doesn't really understand how tired I am or how much I want to scream at people (men) at work when they talk about how "it's so much harder for women" (re babies) - well yes it bloody well is because this world is set up with MEN in mind. Don't get misty-eyed about the sacrifices of women, change the way this works if it worries you so much. Oh, what, it doesn't actually bother you? No, didn't think so.

Hence : feminism

About 11 or 12. A friend's mother was trapped in a violent relationship and when she finally got the guts to go to the police they were next to useless. Then the man started taking a really alarming interest in the developing body of her daughter so she tried to leave but cuts to the funding of women's shelters meant that she had nowhere to go other than friends houses and so kept being 'found'. The attacks got worse and worse and when I tried to help my friend by telling my parents and teachers I was told that I had a very active imagination. Not even my mother believed me that he had started to stalk me too until she saw him doing it and then found him up a tree trying to scare me by knocking on my bedroom window at night. Everything is designed to shut women and children up about domestic and sexual violence.

I think I have always been a feminist and always identified as such. I remember being outraged and leading a huge campaign at school because the head teachers too a group of boys on a "leadership" weekend but there was nothing similar for the girls.

Subsequently, my feminism has evolved. For a long time it was all about being equal etc rtc but now I see the need for much more complex changes to society and the way both men and women view the world.

For example Before, I thought that for women to succeed in the workplace they had to change their behaviour. Over time I have realised that a) that doesn't work and just backfires on them and b? It actually completely misses the point about the fact that there is a subtle but insidious bias towards men across the working world.

Sometimes I get worn down by it. I am so tired of looking incorporate websites and seeing the senior team are all men, usually white and Middle Aged. If there is a woman, she's head of diversity or at best, hr. I want to cry at how often I look at industries dominated by woman but that have men as MDs and CEOs or as head of departments.

And what makes me even more angry and radicalises my feminism more and more is that when I point these things out other people, men and women either try to justify it (at best) or roll their eyes at me.

If I put up a post about being a parent on Facebook I get likes and comments. But put up something about feminism and tumbleweed blows across the page.

ocelot that is absolutely appalling. I hope he didnt get away with all that. Did his wife get away in the end? Sorry you dont have to say Im just

But put up something about feminism and tumbleweed blows across the page.

Yep Working. Ive found this too.

She did eventually by moving and moving and moving, but she was lucky to get away alive. The attacks became murder attempts. Her DD faked her own suicide to get away and emigrated. I only found out she was still alive 20 years later. It took me eleven years and moving over 400 miles away to get rid of him. Total nutter. But the craziest thing is NO ONE believes you.

Suffice it to say I have NEVER cut my donations to Women's Aid even when I was totally broke.

Ocelot I think sometimes people dont WANT to believe it .

I think that's true - it is a very difficult abd scary thing to realise that someone who seems a 'nice bloke' might actually be a sadistic, controlling bully - even a potential murderer. Much easier to call those who tell you that manipulative or fantasists. But I also think that the way in which our culture is structured means that the voices of women and girls are seen as less credible, less authoritative than those of men.

Loads of things.

My parents would say they are feminist but have some odd views that give the conditioning away. My dad certainly is never going to do housework but controls the money. My mother doesn't believe in divorce under any circumstances at all. To them feminism is basically women being able to do everything but men not changing their behavior at all.

I was good at science as a kid, so would often be grouped with boys at interest groups who were clearly uncomfortable with me being there so grew up feeling I didn't belong in that kind of job.

All girls secondary with the mixed you're equal now vs women who want abortions are selfish

Sexually assaulted by an acquaintance but never told anyone because knew I would be blamed.

Nearly died because crappy doctor decided suddenly exaggerating period pains at 20yo was more likely than the previously diagnosed appendicitis (and afterwards he apologized to my parents but not me)

Had a baby, realized maternity services are utter shit because who cares about pregnant women?

DH learnt to drive and not me because he earnt more, then I was SAHP because of same (literally couldn't afford both of us driving/working lessons/childcare was so expensive)

Watched his career catapult while I'm off work, because I am at home, bot know if we divorced my supporting role in his success wouldn't be recognized.

When DH is away realising how little he does in the house even though we have 3 young children and really he should have taken on more with each child this has never happened.

That I know so many who put up with shithead partners who treat them terribly,

Also breastfeeding 100%

Formula feed: expensive manipulation by patriarchal companies telling you your milk isn't enough.

Breastfeed: massive long term commitment of your time and energy presented as a minor inconvenience because women who don't put their babies first no matter the agonizing pain, injury and long term sleep deprivation - are obviously selfish.

It's patriarchy in a nut shell. Whatever a mother does she is judged and controlled.