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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How did you come to see a need for feminism?

77 replies

JeanneDeMontbaston · 20/09/2014 13:54

For me, it's been very gradual. I don't think it would have occured to me not to call myself a feminist as a teenager, but it also wasn't really on my radar. I also went through the 'yay, empowerfullisement, post-feminism' stage at university.

I think now my stance is fairly radical (and I think MN is very radical in some ways, eg., the lack of tolerance for rape myths at least in FWR, and the awareness of a need for women-only space). I know that I have to tone things down to explain anything to my family, which is a bit sad. But it all makes me more and more aware we really do need feminism. I don't know how much that's because sexism is more overt now than it was a few years ago, and how much it's because there's finally a backlash against diluted fun-feminism.

Anyway, discussing this on the pub, justtherightbullets and I figured a thread might be nice, to talk about how we became aware of feminism.

OP posts:
NickAndNora · 21/09/2014 07:32

Just from a very young age being aware of the sheer unfairness of it all. Seeing my father go out to work and then spending the rest of his time going out and having fun, whereas my mum went out to work and then spent the rest of her time doing work at home. Seeing my older brothers having freedom but seeing my older sisters being urged to be cautious and careful. Being the kind of girl who was academically ahead of my peers but constantly being punished for it because I was breaking some kind of unspoken rule. Seeing boys being bribed into behaving themselves with praise and treats, whereas girls' good behaviour and hard work was expected and unremarkable. Being better at things than boys but having them see themselves as superior and more entitled to things then me 'just because'. Coming to realise that there were things I wanted to do in life that boys and men were going to make more difficult for me by threats and intimidation. Realising, that for all we are told to work hard and do well, life isn't a meritocracy and there are other things at play. Realising that to be seen as a success as a female involves putting on a performance and taking an interest in things that are tiresome, dull and shallow.

Sadly, I think I had already seen and experienced all this by the time I was about 6 or 7.

batgirl1984 · 21/09/2014 09:53

I remember doing 'transfer day' up to middle school. Our new teacher wasn't there yet. We were given a group activity to do a project on what our future teacher would be like. I said 'sexist'. Because all adults I know except my parents did seem to be. Big mistake (to say it!) as several of the kids didn't know the word, but did know the word 'sexy'.
I had a good education, a job in a sector with not-too-bad representation of women in management and feminism wasn't at the forefront of my mind. Then I got pregnant. Pressure to find out the sex so that people could project a future onto the unborn child. She was a girl, and I became aware of gender marketing, girls colours, boys colours, butterflies vs tractors. And discovered this board. I also have a son, and feminism benefits him too.

Dragonlette · 21/09/2014 10:40

I was brought up in a fairly feminist household, with mum working ft and dad being a sahd. That was very unusual in the 80s. I also saw older generations of women in my family working and being independent, having never married. Then I went to a Catholic girls' school and we were encouraged to do anything we wanted to do, we were educated to be independent, academic women with the expectation that we would have careers. At the same time we were also being taught that contraception and abortion are always wrong, so I don't know quite how we were expected to put both of those expectations into practice.

Then I fell pg at 19 and the 'father' didn't want the baby so he walked away without a second glance when I refused to terminate. I still didn't get it, it was my choice to continue with the pregnancy so he shouldn't be expected to contribute Sad 6 years as a single parent while also getting a degree in a very male-dominated subject, ratio of 1:100 women to men. I still just thought that this was just the way things were and I didn't put the pieces together.

It was only when I got together with dp and had dd2 that I realised how things could be. Then I had a mc and that whole horrid experience brought me to mn where I started to read the feminist threads, possibly arguing on the wrong side on a few issues before I expanded my thinking. Now I wonder how on earth I ever thought some things were fair and right, like me having my life curtailed in all sorts of ways by having dd1 while her father made absolutely zero changes to his life, even though we had both made the same 'mistake' of having sex where a condom broke.

LittleBlueHermit · 21/09/2014 13:04

I've been lurking on mn for a few weeks now, and reading old threads. It's made me actively examine my own beliefs for the first time, and I'm realising that many of my views align with radical feminism.

I went to an all girls school, and graduated believing women were equal to men, but feminism was outdated. At uni, I completely subscribed to the 'boys club' culture of my residential hall, and convinced myself that raunch culture was empowering. (How can it be empowering if you still believe male pleasure during sex is more important than your own?)

I've seen men mocked for saying the same thing, but having motherhood really made me aware of feminist thought. Not just through awareness of gender stereotypes, and wanting better for my daughter, but also issues of bodily autonomy in pregnancy and birth. The isolation of new motherhood gave me the space to figure out who I am away from societal pressures. And breastfeeding has given me an unprecedented amount of time to read about and reflect on feminist issues :)

I'm very much still learning, and until this year had never thought much about domestic violence, women's space, the conflict between transgender issues and feminism, etc. I'd just accepted the beliefs mainstresm society told me a young, left leaning woman should have.

EBearhug · 21/09/2014 13:59

I notice quite a few of us have said we were at single-sex schools. I think that's interesting. I wonder if being in a single-sex environment in those formative teenage years does make us more likely to identify as feminist, or if I'm just picking up on it because I am one of them.

I do think it made me far less likely to accept things being different just because I am a girl, but I can't know I wouldn't have been that way even if I'd been in a mixed school.

JeanneDeMontbaston · 21/09/2014 15:00

Yes, I noticed that, EBear.

I must say, judging by my schoolmates, the answer is a resounding no!

A few are feministy, but I went to a renunion and found it really disturbing - there were quite a lot who actually didn't have full-time jobs, who had husbands or fiances or just wealthy parents, and who were talking about how they didn't want to work too much. I don't believe working is the be-all and end-all, but I do think it is worrying to find people in their 20s who are basically sitting around playing at being Kate Middleton.

OP posts:
Dragonlette · 21/09/2014 16:26

My schoolmates would indicate yes we do seem to be mostly feminists. All the schoolmates I'm friends with on fb have careers, some more successful than others. There are lecturers, teachers, doctors, midwives, engineers. Only 1 has left her career after having children but for her that was due to massively traumatic personal circumstances at the time rather than a desire to stay at home. I don't see anything wrong with being a sahm for a while but all of my schoolmates seem to share my ideals that include being economically self-relient so that we can support ourselves and our children if we need to.

JohnFarleysRuskin · 21/09/2014 17:27

Yes, single-sex ed between 11-16 here too.

My parents had traditional set-up, but both were comparatively open-minded about us kids. I had no interest in household chores (as I don't now) and parents never said I had to do anything/be anything because I was a girl. Dad was very pro-Thatcher Blush and I heard him argue that of course, being a woman made no difference.

I was always instinctively a feminist, wondered where the women were in history and politics, pro-abortion from 16, called myself Ms from 18 etc.

However, I spent many years without thinking much about it much in my 20s. Then, having a daughter, made me revisit and renew my feminism. At the same time, I started making friends who knew more about it, plus reading here, and just reading the news every day, mean its very much part of my thinking now.

PeggyCarter · 21/09/2014 20:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Darkesteyes · 21/09/2014 23:44

I just wanted to say im so pleased i joined this site and this board. The posters on this site and this board have helped me through some tough times.
I just wanted to say that somewhere here.

ChunkyPickle · 22/09/2014 07:08

I think that I was definitely swayed towards the handmaideny/I don't need feminism/whataboutthemenz side (despite being a very manly kind of woman in hobbies, job etc), even though I knew I was equal and thought I was a feminist - then I came on here when DS1 was born and had the wool pulled from my eyes, and have been riding a wave of indignant anger towards radical feminism ever since (not that it takes over my life, but it's that eye-opening, suddenly realising it's all around me slow boil).

TessOfTheFurbyvilles · 22/09/2014 08:25

Whe

TessOfTheFurbyvilles · 22/09/2014 08:27

When I fell pregnant at the age of 19, and it became clear I was expected to take all the blame for that, whereas my ex-boyfriend seemed to be absolved of any responsibility by others.

It ignited something in me.

PetulaGordino · 22/09/2014 09:05

i was always aware of inequalities in terms of money, education, ethnicity etc, but it was only as an older teenager that i recognised the inequalities for women that extended beyond those factors. though i do remember when i was younger feeling angry on my mother's behalf when people said she shouldn't work if she had young children, and an occasion where i was told it was "unladylike" to whistle and i felt a 7yo's equivalent of "WTF??"

i had a privileged background, but my mum took on the full burden of wifework, raising children etc, while she worked almost full time. her career took a back seat to my dad's, which was their joint decision but i know she sometimes feels wistful about it. interestingly, now that all us children have left home her career has taken off, while dad is winding down to retirement and is (thankfully) taking on much more of the housework. i have had to work very hard to avoid being the "default female" at my parents' house when all of us children are home - the one to whom all household queries and tasks are referred if mum is out, despite the fact that i don't live there any more. my natural socialised inclination is to take responsibility for everything in the home, including everyone's emotional wellbeing, so i have to fight that feeling that i'm a failure if i haven't got all that under control

the biggest influence though was the number of sexual assaults and inappropriate sexual behaviour i experienced as a teenager, and the number of my friends who experienced the same. it made me feel so angry and powerless

PetulaGordino · 22/09/2014 09:07

my mum is very pro-equality, but she is the queen of NAMALT and its counterpart, "women can be XXXX too", when i'm talking at a class level (yes mum, they can, but why are they less likely to be so?)

PeggyCarter · 22/09/2014 13:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PacificDogwood · 22/09/2014 14:04

Not All Men Are Like That - there's a blog of that title Grin

I am glad I am not the only one who was not familiar with that acronym.
I fear I will now have to use All The Time

PetulaGordino · 22/09/2014 14:07
Grin

NAMALT and WCBLTT

PacificDogwood · 22/09/2014 14:11

Ach, no, not another acronym I don't frigging know!

PacificDogwood · 22/09/2014 14:13

Even Google does not know Shock

You made it up, didn't you, Petula?

PetulaGordino · 22/09/2014 14:18

haha yes

women can be like that too

LRDtheFeministDragon · 22/09/2014 21:54

thejoyful - that is incredibly kind of you to say. And pretty much made my day, too.

WillowWoods · 22/09/2014 22:45

Just get that 'air' about you. You'll be fine.

www.thesaurus.com/browse/attitude

PacificDogwood · 22/09/2014 22:48

OMG, I only just got that LRD was LittleRedDragon
Gawd, I am dim. FFS.
I cannot stop tutting at myself.
And you with Dragon still in your name!

I'll never show my face on the FWR board again Blush

vezzie · 22/09/2014 22:53

When I was 7 I told my mum I wanted to be a nun when I grew up, because I thought that was the only alternative to getting married and doing hard, dirty housework all the time while your husband sat on his arse. I loved reading, you don't see women reading much, and I thought being a nun would be the way to keep reading after growing up, instead of cleaning things all the time.

However, although I had a sort of theoretical understanding of some feminist principles as long as I can remember (from my mum), it is only very recently, and not completely, that I have started to try to internalise that idea that I don't need to do more work than all the men in any given context. I just struggle so much with this, and it comes directly from my mum: she knows it isn't fair but that has no relationship to what she is actually going to do in any given situation. I find it very depressing that a whole generation later on can't progress this ridiculous situation. she is very catholic and there is a part of her that cannot ever hold back from putting herself at the very bottom of the pile. Except in a restaurant- which we hardly ever go to - I have never seen her sitting down in a chair while a man brings her a plate or a cup of something. Never.

things have changed as I have got older. i feel less throttled by the immediate rage of constant sexual harrassment (now I am too old for them to be bothered with me), but I feel a sense of barely contained panic about my daughters' eventual graduation to being objects of it. also I have a increased anger that my valuable time, which I am increasingly conscious of as a finite resource, is being dicked about with and appropriated by men, with an incredible sense of entitlement. I feel that keenly partly because I am older and have less time, but also because I have worked hard and am an expert in some fields and I feel like I deserve respect for this, in a way. Without wanting to be a dick about it, it is easier to be humble when you are young and you don't expect your labour to be treated as skilled, as you know it is not, and everything is potentially an opportunity to learn by doing the grunt work. Now it really wears me down that no matter how much top end I take on, the bottom end - none of it, at home or at work - gets taken away as I am assumed to be the class that rolls sleeves up and chips away at boring, dirty things till they are done.

Having grown up without having been sexually abused as a child or raped in war or anything like that, for me, the realisation came out of housework and still sits grimly, glumly there, a big ugly fetid toad on my life - the housework itself, and the resentment of it - like the one in Larkin's poem. roughly 3 times a year I will get so angry I throw things and it is always because I am the only person - the only person, in 10 years - who wipes the kitchen surfaces. No matter where I have been, no matter how disabled or immobile I am, what I have been doing, no matter how much work I have or what ever else I have done for the people in my house, I will never, ever, be able to walk into a kitchen and find it as clean as left it, or clean enough for me to start doing something without cleaning it first. I try to ignore it but there are days I get red mist about it.