Please remind me why I'm not letting my daughters have Barbies

[plantsitter]

They really, really want them and it's so difficult to stand firm... Please give me some arguments to keep me (not them!) convinced.

Thanks in advance!

Lots of interesting points, thank you all. I am going to stick with no Barbies for now. I realised I don't want them to become an ordinary toy like any other - because it's the 'ordinary' that forms ourselves in a way. However I do see the point about glamourising things by not allowing them! I have always taken the 'I don't want you to have them because' stance rather than 'they are banned'.

And soontobesix have you been talking to dd1?! Am I being controlling by enforcing bedtime, making them turn the telly off occasionally and banning 24hour chocolate consumption?

Girls are 3 and 5 by the way.

"I think there is a major difference between controlling your children's exposure to cultural norms ... "

This rather supposes that you agree that Barbie is a desirable cultural norm.

I had Sindies. Similar doll, less extreme figure. Bigger choice in types, sizes and styles of doll then. And far more clothes sold separately, which I think changes nature of play too.

I've seen all those changes between my childhood and DD's. I cannot see this doll as currently marketed as a settled cultural norm in the first place.

The bigger issue in my mind are those things which were the head of a woman with the sole purpose being to style her hair and do her make up.
Please tell me you can't still get them....

Mind you, I had one and still managed to embrace feminism in my teens -so even that shocker of a 'toy' didn't cause major deviation in my world view.

Oh yes, they still exist!

And several manufauters produce them: here's one example from ELC

Because they are shit toys with zero play value.

They aren't cuddly, they don't stand up, you can't get their clothes on and off without ripping them, you can't style their hair without it fuzzing.

They are too big to ride in a practical sized car or live in a practical sized dolls house.

They went in the bin!

I don't think there is any issue with Barbie as a cultural norm.

She's an educated woman who supports herself with a range of exciting and lucrative careers, has a respectful boyfriend, travels, has a supportive and healthy relationship with her sisters, and owns a great portfolio of property. Can't think of anything in there I would object to...

I think it's a bit unfair on her to focus on her tiny waist and long blonde hair. As I said, she's no less (un)realistic than talking dogs or aliens who can fly or - i don't even know how to describe Moshi monsters...

I am far far FAR more concerned about photoshopped "real" women which give our girls the idea that actually is IS possible to be that thin/have pore less skin/whatever. Much bigger issue in my eyes.

Personally I'm not keen on having disembodied heads round the place, but at least the hair on it was slightly more usable than Barbies.

as I'm not sure theirs anything wrong with girls being interested in make up and fashion, as long as they have other interests too.

In any case my two have the ultimate hair and make up it's called "A Sister" they come with real hair, real skin and realistic, but very different body shapes. (Even if one is unnaturally bendy)

I had a couple of barbies (or the cheaper equivalent, and probably second hand too). My mum once bought us a massive bag of scraps of fabric and my sister and I used to make clothes for them. I played barbies with my brother who was into his robots (I really really wanted a Ken but my mother never let me). My Barbie wanted to have a home and populate it with babies, unfortunately his robots kept wanting to rage war and destroy the world. We have done well educationally, got good jobs and found nice partners to share our lives with.

I refused to buy my daughter a new Barbie because they are really expensive for what they are. Once in a charity shop I found a big box of 30 barbies & bratz for £10 so I bought it and I gave it to my daughter. We play together. I dress the barbies and get them all nice and she strips them naked again. They languish mostly under her bed and I do not buy her any others because she has loads at home. At the moment she is far more interested in my little pony and her Nintendo.

I also bought my son cheap plastic guns and he runs around with them (when he can find them, tbh he is more interested in cars). I like to think I give my children lots of opportunities to play with a range of toys. They have educational toys and they have useless plastic tat and they go through phases of playing with all of them. As a parent I am actually more concerned with the amount of time they spend watching TV, playing Nintendo, iPad etc.

At least Barbie has a body (and hair as realistically matted and tangly as mine) Elephants

We've heard it a million times- because if Barbie were a full-sized human her proportions would be unrealistic.

The same could be said for He-Man, but somehow boys manage to grow up without being traumatised by the fact they don't look like the action dolls they used to play with.

Yeah true.

Girls are fucking stupid really aren't they.

I'm pretty sure boys can watch a half hour of television without people trying to sell them 10 products to look like He-man though virenall. They also aren't complimented on how much like He-man they are (the way girls are complimented on prettyiness clothes, hair).

It all works together to make girls feel shit about themselves.

"Yeah true.

Girls are fucking stupid really aren't they."

Your words not mine.

But I'm just curious why Barbie has had ~000000 complaints made about her while He-Man has had like, 0? complaints made about him.

Why don't boys get all insecure knowing they will never look anything like He-Man's ridiculously exaggerated muscle-bound body combined with the little waist and abnormally wide shoulders? Boys seem to know its just a fictional toy that isn't real and just get on with their play.

Which leads me to wonder something else, do little girls who play with Barbie really get insecure all on their own, or is it something their feminist mother projects on them (either knowingly or sub-consciously unknowingly)?

As a male myself I know the male models on the underwear ads with the ripped bodys are all in much better shape than I am (and possibly airbrushed). But I'm not offended and it doesn't make me "insecure" or anything. I just don't understand why feminists get offended at things men wouldn't if it's the other way round.

"~1000000 complaints"

missed out the '1'

"Why don't boys get all insecure knowing they will never look anything like He-Man's ridiculously exaggerated muscle-bound body combined with the little waist and abnormally wide shoulders? Boys seem to know its just a fictional toy that isn't real and just get on with their play."

Like I said. Because girls are really fucking stupid aren't they. Boys are sensible and rational and girls are really fucking stupid.

I see you didn't disagree with that statement before. Nice to have some accord on these boards from time to time

Virenall

Because Barbie is not an isolated "the perfect figure is all that matters" example. Daily Mail side bar of shame, page 3, twitter insults to Mary beard based on her appearance not her work etc etc.

Plus I think that Action Man/Ken aren't actually physically impossible physiques ie a man in those proportions wouldn't fall over from the weight of his head.

I think men's appearance is becoming more of a focus for the media, which is a shame, but it's far far behind the pervasiveness that it is for women and girls.

"Like I said. Because girls are really fucking stupid aren't they. Boys are sensible and rational and girls are really fucking stupid.

I see you didn't disagree with that statement before. Nice to have some accord on these boards from time to time"

All you're doing is trying to put words in my mouth.

Well you've twice pointed out that in your opinion boys (and men) are immune to potentially damaging messages from society and the media etc while girls just hoover them right up often resulting in personal damage.

Sounds to me very much like boys are rational and sensible and girls are really fucking stupid.

I note there is still no disagreement. Good good

Oh shit I missed a point.

"As a male myself I know the male models on the underwear ads with the ripped bodys are all in much better shape than I am (and possibly airbrushed). But I'm not offended and it doesn't make me "insecure" or anything."

Not just girls, obviously, women are also really fucking stupid. Well, all the ones with any feelings of inadequacy or insecurity around their physical appearance, anyway. So that'd be, um, pretty much all of them in the UK.

Really really just thick as mince, the whole bunch of them. You wonder they're allowed out the house! hahahhahahahha.

There's also recent research about Barbie and career aspirations:

"Girls who play with Barbie dolls tend to see fewer career options available to them compared with the options available to boys, according to a new study by researchers at Oregon State University and the University of California, Santa Cruz."

"It's sobering that a few minutes of play with Barbie had an immediate impact on the number of careers that girls saw as possible for themselves" Zurbriggen said. "And it didn't matter whether Barbie was dressed as a model or as a pediatrician, suggesting that the doll's sexualized shape and appearance might trump whatever accessories are packaged with her."
news.ucsc.edu/2014/03/bacrbie-girls-careers.html

My daughter wanted a doll to dress up and now has several Lottie dolls www.lottie.com/ She absolutely loves them. They're modelled on the proportions of a real child, and the clothes and accessories are all around themes that are realistic for a 9 year old - ballet, football, karate, pets, pony riding etc and it prompts some great play as a result. Mattell claim that Barbie's plain-weird proportions are all about making her easy to dress, but that is just bogus. My daughter has had a lot of fun making new outfits for her Lotties out of fabric scraps, and if an 8 year old can manage to create clothes for a naturally-shaped dolly I'm sure a toy company could if they wanted to.

do little girls who play with Barbie really get insecure all on their own, or is it something their feminist mother projects on them (either knowingly or sub-consciously unknowingly)?

What do you think about this? Are girls more likely to be offended by Barbie if they have a feminist mother?

Only girls born to feminist mothers end up insecure about aspects of their physical appearance.

FACT.

Probably because feminists are stupid, women are stupid, and mothers are really fucking stupid. So, triple-mega-whammy of the dim. Because, you know. FACT.

So there we have it. Glad that's all sorted out

at Seven.

I agonised over this decision. DD was desperate for a Barbie. It was becoming A Thing. I got her one with dark hair (like DD's) a long dress and a dog. She was delighted. She played with it a bit. Now it lives in a cupboard and is never played with. But I really think if I had kept saying no it would have become a much bigger deal.