Forgiveness/anger

[gargalesis]

I've been thinking a lot about what Denise Marshall spoke about yesterday at FemiFest.

She gave a very moving account of her own experience of childhood sexual abuse. She then spoke about how she would never forgive her abuser, and she would never forget. She also said that she didn't agree with therapy. I wish I could give a more nuanced account of her argument, but my memory is terrible. I should have been taking notes!

Anyway, it really struck a chord with me. I was in an abusive relationship for three years with a sadist who did terrible things to me. I was beaten and raped regularly. I lost count of the times I thought I would be killed by him. I finally left him about 10 years ago, and it took a long time for me to heal. But I have always maintained that I would never, ever forgive him for what he did. I will always be angry. But I have an outlet - radical feminism. I am outraged that this, and far far worse, is the daily reality for women across the world.

When I got home from the conference yesterday I spoke frankly about all this with my partner for the first time. He was quite shocked, and insisted that it was unhealthy for me to refuse to let go of what happened. I asked him to respect my decision, which he has, but I feel frustrated that he doesn't understand where I'm coming from.

I would love to hear what other people think about these issues. Should we forgive and forget? Is anger unproductive?

MrsBolden, you are remarkable and inspirational and I feel quite proud (is that the right word? Maybe happy is better) tonight that I share your gender!!

You make me want to be stronger. Some years ago I was bullied out of the teaching profession by three horrible men..... I trained SO hard to be a teacher, defying all the people who said I would make nothing of myself. I Had to leave as I was so scared I would meet their ilk again. I HATE them for it...People tell me I have to forgive them for my sake but I can't and I don't want to anyway.

I am not friends with any of my exes.... Or anyone else who has treated me like shite for that matter.

My abuser apologised but I'm still not going to forgive him. Too little, too late and I suspect it was to allay his guilt.

This is how they become cardboard cut-outs of the shitty things that they have done

This strikes me as very pious. Is that what you were going for? Do you congratulate yourself for being able to see the "good" in rapists? I think it's a bit pathetic, tbh. They're fucking cunts, they're unapologetic and in fact usually very proud of that. It's acceptable to acknowledge that IMO.

Pepper... It is very common for teachers to be bullied out of the profession. It had happened to me and I keep trying but I've now gone down the career ladder. The problem is people in that position of power do get on their high horse. ( hugs) there are other professions with less bullies.

Thanks Superstar

I'm still working in education but as a ta and for an agency. There are many things you can do with your teaching qualifications. I'm currently working with a year 6 boy who has been excluded from education.
Unfortunately , hard work alone does not protect us from getting bullied out of the work place. I do find the current patriarchy fosters the bullying approach.
I hope you get your confidence back soon pepper. I think I've decided that there will always be people of their ilk in the work place but I try to avoid and / or escape from. Tis a blow to self esteem though.

the cardboard cut-out version

What is it that you're trying to convey with this phrase? It sounds to me like you're saying that their rapist status is just a small part of the whole man that they really are.

The thing is, for me, once someone has earned rapist status, that really is all I need to know about them. I don't care how clever, funny, poetic, creative, talented etc someone is, if they actively enjoy violating women's boundaries and get off on hurting them.

I do think it is wrong if you to tell victims of serious crime who have forgiven that they are pathetic

And that's not what I said, so that's ok then.

I also thinking the snide "pious" comment is deliberately silencing

And I see lofty statements about rapists not being "cardboard cut outs" as silencing and shaming of women who have not forgiven me, so there we are.

^
And I see lofty statements about rapists not being "cardboard cut outs" as silencing and shaming of women who have not forgiven men, so there we are.

I didn't see your first post there Darcey and only responded to your second - sorry.

BTW is "cuntish" an insult that most feminists look upon favourably now?

that would mean that we ourselves are happy to be nothing-but-a-thief if you ever shoplifted or nothing-but-a-liar if you've told a fib

Are you genuinely comparing rape to fibbing and shoplifting?

In terms of the "do unto others as you would have them do into you" (which I agree is relevant in a secular context and a good principle to live by) I AM doing this with regard to forgiveness. If I did an awful unforgivable thing then I wouldn't expect to be forgiven.

If a rapist or a child abuser etc thinks they deserve to be forgiven, they have underestimated the impact of their crime. Which is telling in itself.

That's not to say I would advocate living in a hate-filled fog forever, but I don't think that's the automatic corollary of not forgiving.

I think forgiveness is overrated and has a decidedly christian slant which leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I have had very bad wrongs done to me. I don't want to forgive him and what's more I don't need to. Healing and forgetting is possible without forgiveness.
I have moved on, my scars have healed and I am happy and content. I have ne need to forgive my abuser.

YY combust why should we forgive the abuser to heal. It's possible to move on without forgiving. In fact I say it again, I think it's very damaging to tell victims to forgive their abusers.

Well yes, you are actually: you are using fibbing and shoplifting to illustrate your points about raping and abusing, and that would make no sense if you didn't mean to imply that they were somehow comparable to each other.

The reason raping is not the same as fibbing is because raping has a very big impact, while fibbing has a very mild impact, if any.

Fibbing does not destroy peoples lives, and - more importantly - the fibber does not fib in the full knowledge that fibbing will destroy someone's life.

Some actions (rape) are far more costly for the victim in terms of impact on their lives than other actions (fibbing), and that is why it is ok to not forgive a rapist if you don't want to. If you don't want to forgive a fibber that would be fine too, but if you claim that the impact of fibbing is equal to the impact of raping then I'd assume there was something wrong with you.

Incidentally, my own view is that the perpetrator of any negative action against another person really does not get to feel indignant and annoyed if the victim declines to forgive. In fact anything less than full agreement with the victim and full acceptance of the victim's hatred and contempt would suggest to me that the perpetrator hadn't even begun to understand the impact of their actions, and was an arsehole.

Re the Christian emphasis on forgiveness: this is a bit of a side issue, admittedly, but I was so sad to read CaptChaos's post accepting that she would go to Hell because of something someone else did to her, and I'm sure she's not alone in that belief. I had to say something even though it will sound dead silly to some at least.

My memory is ghastly and I don't have a Bible to hand, but didn't even Jesus imply there were some acts that cannot and should not be forgiven? Something about whoever betrays the trust of a child, it were better for that person to be cast into the deepest sea with a millstone round their neck. (King James version was "cause these little ones to lose their faith", but I'm sure it meant - and will have been translated elsewhere as - betrayal of trust.) Anyway, as a sort-of non-denominational Christian, I am quite certain that if there is a Hell it will be populated by the bastards who perpetrate child abuse, with the deepest levels reserved for the ones who did it whilst wearing the robes of Church authority. There is no way that the Jesus who was reported to say what he did about children would condemn an abused child who even in adulthood was unable to forgive the wickedness done to them. You are not the one who has done anything wrong. Let God love the sinner - Gods can do that, being omnipotent 'n' all. We are only human.

Disclaimer: The thing about children is the one I remember as particularly standing out. I in no way intended to suggest that those who have been raped or otherwise maltreated as adults have any more of an obligation to forgive their abusers. (There's relatively minor stuff in my past I will never forgive, nor even feel guilty about never forgiving, so I hope it isn't a damning offence...!)

annie- I don't think it is a side issue at all I think this assumption that we need to forgive in order to heal ourselve is decidedly christian.

And untrue.