Forgiveness/anger

[gargalesis]

I've been thinking a lot about what Denise Marshall spoke about yesterday at FemiFest.

She gave a very moving account of her own experience of childhood sexual abuse. She then spoke about how she would never forgive her abuser, and she would never forget. She also said that she didn't agree with therapy. I wish I could give a more nuanced account of her argument, but my memory is terrible. I should have been taking notes!

Anyway, it really struck a chord with me. I was in an abusive relationship for three years with a sadist who did terrible things to me. I was beaten and raped regularly. I lost count of the times I thought I would be killed by him. I finally left him about 10 years ago, and it took a long time for me to heal. But I have always maintained that I would never, ever forgive him for what he did. I will always be angry. But I have an outlet - radical feminism. I am outraged that this, and far far worse, is the daily reality for women across the world.

When I got home from the conference yesterday I spoke frankly about all this with my partner for the first time. He was quite shocked, and insisted that it was unhealthy for me to refuse to let go of what happened. I asked him to respect my decision, which he has, but I feel frustrated that he doesn't understand where I'm coming from.

I would love to hear what other people think about these issues. Should we forgive and forget? Is anger unproductive?

People never specify what they do mean by forgiveness IMO.

It's come to mean something about how the victim reacts in herself rather than how s/he reacts to the perpetrator of whatever it is s/he has to forgive.

I think there's a lot of fudging around it. It's had a really positive press because of the message of forgiveness in the official state religion for so many centuries. But now we're allowed to question it, people are getting a bit confused about what it is. They're still not comfortable with saying "it's OK not to forgive" because the cultural resonance is all about forgiveness.

I've never understood why forgiveness is perceived to be such an aspiration anyway. It mostly seems to imply victimhood writ virtuous.

I've always assumed it was conceived (in it's form as a virtue) a long time ago in the deserts of the Middle East by a people who weren't capable of properly fighting back against their oppressors therefore decided to make a positive tribal trait of giving in and giving up, thus binding them closer together in shared perceived superiority as holders of the moral high ground.

Forgiveness doesn't seem like a natural human reaction to inflicted suffering to me. And other than the aforementioned taking pleasure in holding the moral high ground (which has always seemed pointless if you're losing out in every other sense) I don't understand the benefits. Anger is a sensible reaction to bad things happening, anger inspires action.

OP, can you remember why the speaker was so against therapy? Its been an absolute life changer for me - there is no way I could have made this progress without professional help. I'm lucky to have a great therapist.

I think the speaker felt when people told her to see a therapist that it would help her "get over" what happened to her. And there was no getting over it. You can go to a doctor when you're sick and you can get over and get better, but you don't just go to a doctor and take a pill and undue years of abuse (like she experienced). She also didn't want to be pushed in to forgiving and forgetting and "letting go"

I can't remember if she said this or touched upon it but also I think people want you to speak to a therapist so they can avoid the difficult conversations with you themselves.

Just go see a therapist and get fixed.

I hate it when people ask if it "made me stronger". I am just as strong as I would otherwise have been. Just more damaged.

bullets

FOW, that makes sense. Some people do think that seeing a therapist or 'having a bit of counselling' is some kind of magical fix, rather than the grindingly painful work it can be. And yes, loads of people can't handle listening to other peoples pain, grief, loss etc so they just want you to go away and sort yourself out. Oh yes and 'get over it'. There is no 'getting over it' - just learning to live with it if you're lucky

Nope, still don't get it Darcey.

I can attribute full humanity and full agency to someone who has wronged me and still never forgive them. Lack of forgiveness doesn't mean seeing the person only through the lens of what they did wrong, it means that what they did wrong is not deserving of forgiveness.

I would argue that by forgiving you are in fact slightly infantilising them by allowing them to "get away with it". We are defined by the sum total of our actions, good and bad. Forgiving the bad ones unfairly skews the balance.

Darcey you use the term transgressors.

You can forgive a criminal for making a temporary lapse of judgment they can learn from. You give them human dignity because they can change, they did it for money, or out of desperation.

Abusers, didn't, apart from a handful of young coerced abusers. They generally don't change and are repeat offenders without any concern for their victims. These people have moved on from the world of human dignity and it is their choice to do so, every time. There is no reason they deserve to be shown forgiveness. They need to be faced up to in some way, exposed and victims need to be supported.

I'm not going to go into the religious use of forgiveness as a way to minimise offences in order to keep on doing it under cover of respectability.

I'm possibly going to say something which is a bit controversial as well, although I am hoping that it may give others hope and positivity for the future. I have been through personal trauma in my own life, have grown up in a highly emotionally abusive household, and have come through it remarkably well. Since my own trauma, I have met many others who have come through divorce, loss of loved ones, and other personal tragedies who have not healed well - and there is a marked difference between them and men.

As part of my own healing from the grief related to my trauma, I have done a lot of counseling, been to a patient support group, read over 30 self help books on a multitude of topics, and all of these have helped in a variety of ways. One of the most important things I learned was how to deal with your emotions - do not shut them off and bury them or ignore them. This is the way family and society usually teaches us to deal with emotions. This is the fast track to feeling even worse at a later point in your life.

Emotions need to be felt, ruminated on, tracked for the source, and allowed their time and space in your mind and body. Instead of holding your breathe and riling against the emotion, try clearing your mind, relaxing your body, breathing steadily and deeply alongside the emotion, and analysing it and seeing where it comes from. Allow it to come and go as it pleases and give it a voice. Eventually, because you have given the emotion its time and space, it will go away. And if it does not, it because it is not yet spent. I compare emotions to flatulence - "Better out than in" as the saying goes.

I know how absurd the above method might sound, but it is a technique that has worked incredibly well for me, and I learned it in one of the personal development books I read. Also while you might feel incredibly emotional, you must separate how you feel from any actions you take. Eg I am angry about X, but I will be pleasant and kind to my family because they are not the cause of my anger. While I still feel anger for some of the issues in my life, the anger has receded a great deal and is so much more manageable. I am actually starting to reach a place where I can 'almost' feel compassion for those who have wronged against me. That is not to say I have forgiven them, but they no longer have the mental and emotional hold on me that they used to have.

Zazzles, I completely agree with 'better out than in' when it comes to emotions, so long as you can release the emotion in a way that doesn't harm you or others. As you point out, the problem is that so many of us have been taught that we are not allowed to have emotions, so whatever we feel must be hidden, with all of the shame and anxiety and anger that goes along with not being allowed to be yourself. Allowing yourself to feel is a skill that needs to be learned and it takes time. But I have found, like you have, that acknowledging the emotion and thinking about the cause actually makes the emotion less intense and less scary over time. And I am moving towards a place where I can accept that my parents didn't know any better. I'm not sure I'll ever forgive them though.

Yes, that is a very good point Lotta, finding a positive expression for your emotions rather than a negative one. Railing at your family because you are angry at the abuse you have suffered at the hands of a third person is, of course, a very negative way to manage your emotions. Going to a kickboxing class, and letting your emotions out on a pad - much better. However, one of the best ways (I have found) to reduce heightened emotions to a more manageable level, is to allow yourself to feel them under safe conditions as described above, and to just let them out in ways that won't harm others.

Is there more to a man that rapes than being "A Rapist". I think we prefer to think of people in a black/white way.
Ah but that's my point. I said "sum total of all their actions". I didn't say "their worst actions only". If someone has mostly done bad things then why would you forgive them? They are undeserving. People should be held to account for their actions, and that in part means withholding forgiveness I believe.

That said, forgiveness is totally justified if it wasn't a Really Bad Thing, etc. I'm not suggesting "one strike and you're out".

I also think the expectation of forgiveness gives people an out, excusing their bad behaviour. Nasty people without a conscience count on their victims feeling bound to forgive them, or at least try to, as many pp's have said.

I don't see the logical link between a belief in heaven and forgiving people either. I think it's more likely that the religious dimension is (as I said) an extension of "the meek shall inherit the earth" thing - ie making a virtue out of an unpleasant necessity because the founders of the religion had no power and therefore no other option.

sorry have not read whole thread

but forgiving someone who has abused you for some is not something they feel they can do. they may go through therapy to deal with their feelings so it hopefully will not impact on other relationships

it is how you feel and what you are comfortable with and can live with without it having an impact on your life and you are not aware. I felt I had to forgive my stepfather for the horrific abuse I can not and do not want to he is a cruel man but I am ok with that, I no longer hate him I feel sad for the little girl that was me and I always will but i no longer feel hate which I internalised and anger which was the step forward for me

I am a therapist I have seen clients who do forgive, others feel they should to move on and get caught up in that and others simply do not want to but can still move on there is no wrong way or right way

and I agree anger is not always bad, why should you not be angry but the key is self awareness is what you hopefully gain from therapy an awareness as to why you feel the way you do and react the way you do, does not make it all so simple but its the step for many to move on

I think the notion of forgiving and forgetting/moving on is changing because society is changing we are talking about issues we just never used to people are able to express more how they feel and anger is seen as a negative, especially for a woman but accepting that is how you feel and to own it is something we are moving forward to

Zazzles, it doesn't sound absurd to me at all, it sounds like the way I've learnt to deal with difficult emotions lately too.
Instead of pushing away the feeling or drowning in it, I try to simply acknowledge it. "Oh I feel really x right now. It's because y happened. That's an understandable reaction" - and then I can focus on something else.
I've found it helpful to think like that.

Warning! Might be triggering for some but I've left out most details.

I was raped violently by a stranger when I was 14. I was beaten badly, had internal injuries and strangled into unconsciousness and he only left me because he thought I was dead.

And I was dead in a way. The person I was before and the person I could have been did die. I 'knew' he'd kill me at that time and I welcomed it, the things he said to me, the spitting in my face and the violence on my body - I didn't want to live with that.

But I did. I was a mess for years and then trained in MH and quirks of fate led me into forensic MH and I was working with sex offenders and rapists at times so I've seen all sides really.

I'm not saying I'm fine because that's inaccurate but on the whole I think I do bloody well!. I have never been able to maintain a healthy romantic relationship with a man and probably never will. I'm brilliant at my job but my mind is a dark place sometimes and I'm sure that will always be the case. But I don't have a fear of men or a negative view of them. I just don't.

It's not my role to bestow forgiveness on my attacker. It's just not. And I can't forgive what he did or what he took from me. But I pity him. I have no doubt from the things he did and said that he hated me. He felt absolute hatred for a 14 year old defenceless girl that he didn't know. And that is seen very, very rarely in people who have had happy childhoods and lives.

I pity him for that. And I lead a good life. I'll probably never get married or have children but I'm a productive member of society, I'm a bloody good Nurse and loved by my family and lots of friends.

What other women feel about their experiences is completely their own and I will always respect that (working in MH have worked with many, many rape/abuse survivors) but this has been my story xx.