Forgiveness/anger

[gargalesis]

I've been thinking a lot about what Denise Marshall spoke about yesterday at FemiFest.

She gave a very moving account of her own experience of childhood sexual abuse. She then spoke about how she would never forgive her abuser, and she would never forget. She also said that she didn't agree with therapy. I wish I could give a more nuanced account of her argument, but my memory is terrible. I should have been taking notes!

Anyway, it really struck a chord with me. I was in an abusive relationship for three years with a sadist who did terrible things to me. I was beaten and raped regularly. I lost count of the times I thought I would be killed by him. I finally left him about 10 years ago, and it took a long time for me to heal. But I have always maintained that I would never, ever forgive him for what he did. I will always be angry. But I have an outlet - radical feminism. I am outraged that this, and far far worse, is the daily reality for women across the world.

When I got home from the conference yesterday I spoke frankly about all this with my partner for the first time. He was quite shocked, and insisted that it was unhealthy for me to refuse to let go of what happened. I asked him to respect my decision, which he has, but I feel frustrated that he doesn't understand where I'm coming from.

I would love to hear what other people think about these issues. Should we forgive and forget? Is anger unproductive?

"bitter" is a very loaded, silencing word, isn't it

I will state right now that I am unable to be even slightly rational about this.

I cannot let go of my anger. I will not let go of my anger. If I do, I will be failing my little girl self, I would be turning my back on her and her pain. I will not forgive. How can the adult me forgive what the little girl me went through? How can the now me forgive what the young adult me went through? Will me letting go of the anger erase what happened? Will it stop my being blamed for it? Will it take me back in time to stop all the other shit that lead off in a direct line from it? Will forgiving them stop the shame I feel?

You can't forgive abuse. There is no closure. The best I can hope for is acceptance, I have reached acceptance, it doesn't stop the rage. I have faith and my faith tells me that, without forgiveness, I won't be forgiven. Bit of a double whammy that, abused, won't forgive, will go to hell.

Samer here gin. It was awful, being so full of self-blame and confusion. I also thought I was the only one on earth who felt that way. Finding feminism and realizing that my problems weren't unique has helped me so much.

I was abused as a child. I felt like I had to forgive him, because if I didn't, I wouldn't be the 'better' person, because I couldn't 'move on' and so on. I can't forgive him and I don't think I should. People who are abused have enough problems accepting what happened a) happened and b) was abuse. Then they have to accept that they couldn't do anything (to, they couldn't change anything (to learn NOT to forgive themselves- my mother attempted to get me to 'forgive' myself, it would have been so much better if she'd just said that there's nothing to forgive yourself for). Then they have to accept that it will influence them for all their lives and affect many of their actions. The way I raises my children, the relationships I've had, the way I think of myself and others, it's all been affected by it.

Why should I forgive? Even if my abuser decided to completely stop acting like himself, apologised profusely and donated all his possessions to charity, I wouldn't forgive him. He could kill himself and I wouldn't forgive him. What happened, still happened In fact, it's almost better, for me at least, knowing he won't ever do that, because if he can realise what he did was so wrong and abuse, then he would have realised that it was when abusing me. And did it anyway. As far as I know, he can't care less.

I disagree about the lack of need for therapy, though. I went to counselling (which includes CBT) and it was invaluable for helping me properly realise everything I said in my first paragraph. But afterwards, I can't (and didn't) see the point. Therapy won't stop you being affected, it won't stop your anger or pain, and it might not stop feelings of shame or regret or confusion, although hopefully it would at least let you understand why you feel that way, but it was invaluable in other ways, especially the CBT.

of course the whole narrative of recovery is that you go to counselling, you get it off your chest, you cry a lot then you feel better and move on

YES! Just follow the steps now and you'll be fine. If you're not fine, you've done it wrong.

I can never consign those things to a box marked "past, moved on from this box"
^Absolutely this. The mental image that's just come to mind is one of a line of completely straight machine stitching in a piece of fabric (that's what it's "supposed" to be like) versus a piece of smocking, where the stitches reach back as well as forward, and link separate points to each other (which is, for me, what it's actually like: the past can't just be left behind, it's always with us).

They'll come out and bite me on the arse now and then and now I know that happens, it doesn't phase me so much and actually I think that is healthy - what CKD is saying about it being healthier to live with the truth

Yes, CKD nailed it.

Yes I'm doing CBT atm, it is incredibly helpful. I don't mean to imply that you don't need it, just that it's not a panacea, not the miracle cure people think it is. As that alcoholically named poster said, it comes in fits and starts, it's not a linear process.

Sorry just crossed with gincampariandalltheotherbooze.

One of the things that Denise Marshall said yesterday was that she had been sitting having a meal with 9 other women and only 1 of those women hadn't been abused as a child.

We are made to feel shame for our abusers actions. We are told never to tell by our parents. We assume that we are alone in what happened to us, but we aren't.

I've done CBT three times and I will never do it again. Maybe I've had three bad experiences but I've found it profoundly insulting and minimising every time. My latest (and last) practitioner spent a lot of time asking me for pointers on how to help a male rape victim; she explicitly stated that she thought that what he went through was worse than what I went though because male rape is so much rarer.

Never, ever again.

Fucking outrageous ginvermouth.

Crap counsellor.

One of the things that Denise Marshall said yesterday was that she had been sitting having a meal with 9 other women and only 1 of those women hadn't been abused as a child
I was thinking about the ubiquity of sexual abuse a couple of days ago and as an experiment I ran though all my best female friends, from early childhood to present day. Out of a total of 7, two have not (to my knowledge) been sexually abused in childhood or raped in adulthood.

We assume that we are alone in what happened to us, but we aren't
God forbid we recognise a pattern.

She was fucking depressing, Ask. Very stupid, very naive, very confident. Awful awful person. She referred to my rape as "the sex" throughout my entire course of counselling.

God forbid we recognise a pattern.

But it's our silence, because we are told in every possible way that we're alone, that lets it continue. I was silent about the man who raped me when I was 15, I later found out that he had raped everyone within our friendship group, including his daughter. We are not to blame for his being a rapist bastard, but, if we had felt able to go to the police....? If one of Jimmy Saville's victims had felt able to to go the police in the 50's? Its the conspiracy of silence which allows it to continue, and the way that the authorities deal with rape and CSE that stop women speaking out about it. Fucking patriarchy sucks arse.

Some really great posts on this thread!

Yyyy to the why why why? I think that's one of the reasons why it's so important to name abuse for what it is. It helps stop the why questions. Well it did for me. It answered them. I'd never really heard of emotional or verbal abuse or thought of it as systematic and realised there were patterns/blueprints of behaviours. Realising this turns you away from endlessly examining your own behaviour and puts the blame where it is deserved.

Interesting discussion, I was told by a counsellor about another issue, not abuse, but another wrongdoing 'some people feel guilty' and I told her that I don't feel guilty, I feel angry. After that I doubted my sanity, thinking I had missed something.

I didn't need counselling, I needed those responsible for the wrongdoing to apologise. Years later I met many others who had been through a similar experience. Had we all remained isolated, had our anger medicated or counselled out of us we would never have found our voice and made the changes that we did.

One day we all had a communal rant and it gave us the courage to protest, the results were big, still ongoing and the institutions and politicians involved are all shocked that it's gone on unchecked for so long.

Anger is good. There is always a way to use it constructively, even Nelson Mandela felt it, but he used it wisely. If anything we need to hold onto it.

Thinking of the poor girl who still walks by her abusers in Rotherham.

But then you look at the children in Rotherham, Chaos, who did go to the police and it was glossed over. Everyone around Jimmy Saville knew what was going on and it was glossed over (and I don't believe not one of those children he abused didn't go to the police. It was just covered up.).

There are patterns all around abuse, not just with the abusers behaviour.

But it's our silence, because we are told in every possible way that we're alone, that lets it continue

Exactly this. And not only this, but even when we do speak up very little happens. Rape is basically legal in the UK. Very few women report because they know they'll be dragged over the coals in court and even if a conviction is miraculously secured, the sentence will be a playful tap on the wrist. I know someone who was raped by a stranger in a pubic place [ie prosecutor's dream rape case]. She'd screamed so loudly and so long that six separate people called the police. The guy was caught and charged. There was a lot of physical evidence as well as all the 999 calls. He got 18 months. Why fucking bother reporting?

Sorry Scallops, that's kind of where I was trying to go with my post.

Our silence is guaranteed because we know that no one will believe us. Girls did go to the police in Rotherham, one of the girls had her clothes taken as evidence and the evidence was 'lost'. Girls who spoke out were labelled as 'asking for it' 'troublemakers' they were treated like rubbish. Every time something like this comes to light the authorities say that lessons will be learned, but they never are.

Yes sorry Chaos. For some reason I omitted to read your last couple of sentences! I think I need some sleep

I struggled with the concept of forgiveness and posted on MN at one point for the Christian viewpoint (I'm not Christian, but the people who stabbed me in the back were, and I was trying to get my head round it all and how they could do that).

I also struggled to move on from what happened. I tried the whole forgiveness thing but it doesn't work that way for me. No remorse, no putting right = no forgiveness. Forgiveness didn't seem to be part of the necessary process for me.

I found this GREAT blog post that sums it all up. Why forgiveness is bullshit and what people who want you to forgive are really after, and responses to the forgiveness cliches that are constantly rolled out.It talks about the stigma on not forgiving...but that forgiveness is not always the right way to go.

I find it very useful.

sometimesmagical.wordpress.com/2013/01/11/forgiveness-is-bullshit/

I think that feelings- like anger or bitterness or fear -are neither right or wrong, they just are.

It's what you DO with these feelings that might be either right or wrong, healthy or unhealthy .

So if you use these feelings and experiences to help other women, campaign for a good cause, throw yourself into a positive activity like sport, the arts , your career, being the best mother you can be -that's all good .

We wouldn't have rape crisis centres or womens refuges of it wasn't for women who were angry about male violence and wanted to support other women .

You don't have to make a decision to " forgive " , to decide to be as healthy as you can and not to let the abuser have any more power over you in your life

Forgiveness doesn't mean excusing what happened

It doesn't mean understanding why they did it

It doesn't mean continuing to have contact with the abuser or letting your kids have contact

It doesn't mean a lack of consequences for the abuse eg legal, social

It doesn't mean you can't be angry at them

Everyone's journey is different . I don't think we should tell others how to "recover " .

Excellent thread. I was emotionally abused by my parents and was in a violent controlling relationship as an adult. I've been in therapy for 5 years and its only been in the last couple of years that I've been able to acknowledge my anger. My rage . I was terrified of it and so ashamed of it. I'm still not sure what to do with it sometimes - I mostly let it out through sobbing when I feel the need. Its so painful.

I know what I cannot do with it and that's 'get over it'. I can't just flick a switch and not feel it anymore. And forgiveness is just not on my radar. I am working towards acceptance though - its a long hard road but I'm on my way and it feels like the path to peace and happiness.

OP, can you remember why the speaker was so against therapy? Its been an absolute life changer for me - there is no way I could have made this progress without professional help. I'm lucky to have a great therapist.

Lotta -please don't worry, if you have a good therapist and you find it helpful that's great . And you might be in the right place in your life to benefit from it

There are many different types of therapy and good and bad therapists. ( I am at the therapist who referred to rape as " the sex" BTW) .

And therapy isn't for everyone . Some people would rather go for a run /knit a jumper /weed the garden