Prostitutes - Are Women in Denial About Who Uses Them?

[CKDexterHaven]

I've seen some threads on Mumsnet where a woman is concerned about her husband or partner going on an all-male trip to Thailand or Las Vegas or Prague or Amsterdam. As soon as someone raises the issue of prostitution they are shouted down and told they are jumping to conclusions. Is the issue of nice, middle-class husbands using prostitutes something to which women are willingly blind?

There are millions of prostituted women and girls in the world, and, of course, men and boys too. The slow advancements in women's lives in the developed world mean that women in their thousands are trafficked from East to Western Europe, from South to North America, from Africa to Southern Europe and from Asia to Australia and the rest of the world just to meet demand. It stands to reason that there must be a lot more clients than prostitutes. The ratio must be akin to hairdressers and their clients. So where are the men? And who are they?

I've read interviews with exited prostitutes who say most of their clients were 'normal', often married, middle-class men. I've heard prostitutes say the best time to work is not a Friday or Saturday night but first thing on a Monday morning when mid-life crisis guys who hate their jobs treat themselves before going back to work. But in my lifetime I've only ever met two men who've admitted to using prostitutes. One was very drunk and bragged to his friends, the other one was an 'edgy' mature student who thought it wasn't exploitative because the prostitute was older than him and, therefore, somehow in control of the situation. That's it, two men.

When I was growing up in the 80s and early 90s porn was sold in dodgy shops, stripping happened in sleazy men's clubs and prostitution was virtually invisible to anyone who didn't live in a red-light area. Even the most handmaideny of handmaidens I knew felt these things were degrading to men and women. Now that porn is a click away and lap-dancing clubs are in every town centre most women seem to have redefined these things as 'empowering' rather than confront the fact that men they know enjoy dehumanising women who need money. Prostitution is also a lot more visible and, although this has been redefined as an empowering career choice for women, women still seem sensitive to the idea of men they know using prostitutes. Why is this? Is it just the question of tangible cheating or are women not as ok with 'sex work' for women as they say they are?

Curwen, I would much rather examine the male behaviour that enables women being seen as belonging to different "classes" or "groups" or whatever you want to call it

Nobody talks about that much do they (apart from feminsists of course)

Any situation where a woman consents to sex for any reason other than that she actually wants that sex is rape. Any man who takes advantage of the fact that a woman he is with is saying yes to sex because she feels she has no other choice, is a rapist.

What are you driving at, Curwen? Is this going to tie back in with your "class of women" that date/have sex with rich ugly men point?

No, but even if they were getting the money, and earning millions, they are still being used as a wank rag by a penis-faced arsemonkeys who don't deserve to live.

Of corse it is child abuse. The discussion was is prostitution ever not abusive ?

"I do think women are very much in denial about what men are like, but only because it is a survival mechanism"

This! When women do stick their heads above the parapet they get them blown off! I've lost count of how many times I've been in conversation (especially when younger) with male work colleagues and had to keep my views to myself because I risked losing my status as the "cool girl". We all have to laugh along, pretend it's no big deal and accept the twisted warped result of so called post - feminism: that it's empowering, that it's all about freedom of choice.

What's missing is a discussion on how men who use prostitutes can do so knowing that those women wouldn't be having sex with them if they weren't giving them money. It's weird and creepy. I would feel ashamed to have sex with someone who didn't really want to.

Migsy, without wishing to be antagonistic, how do you feel about the fact that you are part of an industry that perpetuates deceit and infidelity. I doubt those "normal" men who are your clients have told their wives what they are doing and if they have I'm sure the wives would rather they didn't. I'd be really interested in your answer.

To add, it isn't the case that one day a person is young enough that it is wrong for them to be used for sex and the next day they are old enough that it is suddenly ok. No matter what age a person is, their body is not a commodity to be sold for use to others.

No, prostitution is never not abusive.

What I am clumsily trying to say is that when the balance of power is so loaded in favour of men, especially financial power, I am wondering how women can ever truly consent. Can consent exist in an unequal relationship? It was just an extension of the OP's point about exploitation.

I see what you are trying to say, Curwen and it is a valid radical point.

However, in the context of individual relationships I am uncomfortable with this idea because it infers women are the "gatekeepers" of sex and could never be expected to have sex for their own pleasure.

I maintained that for adult women, it could be the least awful of an extremely limited set of options

I may have the wrong end of the stick here, but are you saying you think prostitution could be the least awful option?

I would say that maybe, in a country with no welfare state, where destitution is a real possibility, then maybe yes.

But in the UK?

Obviously when external influence is involved [coercion etc] then, that is different, but in that situation, it wouldn't be an 'option', as there isn't generally a choice.

Aside from situations where women do this to fund a drug habit, there is always another option.

AF, that wasn't my intention. Obviously women can choose to have sex for pleasure if there is a level playing field - one night stands, casual relationships, long term commitments etc. But when it isn't level, isn't there exploitation at some point? Is there a scale of exploitation, with prostituted women at one extreme, and a unpaid stay-at-home wife at the other (because both are members of the same unequal society)? Or is it all the same thing? I am trying to get this clear in my own head.

That's what this board is for

I get so angry when people say that prostitution is rape and clients are rapists. I've been raped and the two are very different. I consent to have sex with them, whether I like them or not. So it's definitely not rape.

And no I'm not a "happy hooker" but I understand it was my choice to do this job. No one forced me.

I think you're on dodgy ground trying to place prostitution and being temporarily out of paid employment while caring for children on some kind of continuum. It wouldn't fly in AIBU or -Chat without the fur flying anyway.

Well we were talking mainly about migrant sex workers. Eg: North Africans in Southern Europe, so perhaps I was mainly talking about women without recourse to public funds. I am not so convinced it could never be the least awful option for a uk national. Fwiw I know very little about this although I met a few sex workers in my professional capacity.

Well, BOF, that viewpoint is a valid radical feminist viewpoint. Not one I subscribe to though. And seems curiously woman-hating to me < shrug >

Even on a feminist board this seems to be a touchy subject to raise.

YY. When I went to Thailand for three weeks by myself, I was astonished by the sheer numbers of normal, high-functioning, attractive English men who were in relationships at home - and using prostituted women in Thailand. I still don't quite understand why every other holidaymaker can't see it too; the only possible explanation is selective stupidity.

Both my ex-husbands used prostitutes. The second one's close to addicted - when he's stressed, he goes to a sex worker. He must still be doing it, it's so much a part of who he is. His wife of 12 years, the mother of his children, must be wilfully ignorant. One of my brothers, the one any woman would see as a fantastic catch, is what the papers would call a sex addict. He indignantly swears he'd never 'pay for it' - but he does, in gifts & favours. I don't know whether his current wife's aware; she might be. For many years, I ran bars where it was obvious which men were looking to pay for sex. They were mostly nice, normal, successful men - as were the clients who, in my main career, I occasionally took to lapdancing clubs as part of my entertainment duties. About a quarter of them would pay for their own 'private dances' (I could have put them on expenses, but refused.)

Like the 'establishment paedophile' thing, it's patriarchal male entitlement - and bonding; the bonding's a crucial factor for the normal majority. Similarly, too, it's convenient to look the other way because if we saw, we might have to question everything we've understood about our rights and independence. And, of course, NAMALT. We just don't want to think that any of 'our' men might be LT.

It does matter. But, tbh, I'm not entirely sure in what ways, exactly, it matters. I'm far more clear-cut in my views on CSA.

Is there a scale of exploitation, with prostituted women at one extreme, and a unpaid stay-at-home wife at the other (because both are members of the same unequal society)? Or is it all the same thing? I am trying to get this clear in my own head.

Can't answer that, but you've put it well!

They were mostly nice, normal, successful men

This was my original point. Many women don't realise that they don't stand out as women hating rapists, some on here like to believe, but ordinary run of the mill 'family' guys. I have seen one client who see me just before he did the school run. I feel guilty but I think they are the cheats, not me.

Many women don't realise that they don't stand out as women hating rapists, some on here like to believe, but ordinary run of the mill 'family' guys.

Those ordinary run of the mill family guys are acting like entitled woman hating rapists. They aren't mutually exclusive.

Has your pimp told you how much you owe him yet Migsy? How much longer you'll have to have sex with men who don't think you're human before you can pursue your dream of becoming a nurse? Will he read this thread and threaten you, like he did before?