Prostitutes - Are Women in Denial About Who Uses Them?

[CKDexterHaven]

I've seen some threads on Mumsnet where a woman is concerned about her husband or partner going on an all-male trip to Thailand or Las Vegas or Prague or Amsterdam. As soon as someone raises the issue of prostitution they are shouted down and told they are jumping to conclusions. Is the issue of nice, middle-class husbands using prostitutes something to which women are willingly blind?

There are millions of prostituted women and girls in the world, and, of course, men and boys too. The slow advancements in women's lives in the developed world mean that women in their thousands are trafficked from East to Western Europe, from South to North America, from Africa to Southern Europe and from Asia to Australia and the rest of the world just to meet demand. It stands to reason that there must be a lot more clients than prostitutes. The ratio must be akin to hairdressers and their clients. So where are the men? And who are they?

I've read interviews with exited prostitutes who say most of their clients were 'normal', often married, middle-class men. I've heard prostitutes say the best time to work is not a Friday or Saturday night but first thing on a Monday morning when mid-life crisis guys who hate their jobs treat themselves before going back to work. But in my lifetime I've only ever met two men who've admitted to using prostitutes. One was very drunk and bragged to his friends, the other one was an 'edgy' mature student who thought it wasn't exploitative because the prostitute was older than him and, therefore, somehow in control of the situation. That's it, two men.

When I was growing up in the 80s and early 90s porn was sold in dodgy shops, stripping happened in sleazy men's clubs and prostitution was virtually invisible to anyone who didn't live in a red-light area. Even the most handmaideny of handmaidens I knew felt these things were degrading to men and women. Now that porn is a click away and lap-dancing clubs are in every town centre most women seem to have redefined these things as 'empowering' rather than confront the fact that men they know enjoy dehumanising women who need money. Prostitution is also a lot more visible and, although this has been redefined as an empowering career choice for women, women still seem sensitive to the idea of men they know using prostitutes. Why is this? Is it just the question of tangible cheating or are women not as ok with 'sex work' for women as they say they are?

Do some women, and I'm not just talking about third-wave feminists here, feel an unspoken relief at the idea of there being an underclass of 'sex-workers' soaking up men's darkness and frustrations so the legitimate, nice women only have to deal with socially acceptable side these men choose to show to the world. They don't really like that someone is doing it but mostly they're glad it's not them.

Your posts are very antagonistic, even if you don't mean them to be..

Suggesting that the partners of those using prostitutes are OK with their dp/dh taking out their frustrations on another woman? So now women view prostitutes as some kind of emotional and/or physical punch bag & that is OK as long as their dp/h doesn't bring that abuse home? Bloody hell!! That is a pretty shitty generalisation & very insulting too! To both sexes!

"normal" men - what are abnormal men?

"legitimate, nice women" - implying those who sell sex are neither legitimate or nice? It would be a good idea, I think, to remember that the majority of sex workers do not want to be doing what they are doing, but regardless of whether or not it is their choice, they are STILL women & still capable of being legitimate & nice!!!

And no, that woman's husband might not be going for prostitution but there are so many that do. Of course, but that doesn't mean you are allowed to accuse MY dh of doing so, whether you throw that accusation towards HIM personally, or whether you lump him in with the minority of mankind. If I had posted about him going to Vegas & someone DID suggest that was why he was going/what he would be doing when he got there, I'd be pretty pissed at the assumption that my dh was in that minority.

My utter belief that he would not do such a thing is not from me putting my hands over my ears & going 'la-la-la, I can't hear you' OR because it's such a difficult thing to confront?. OR because I have an acceptance of porn/prostitution It is because I know, without a doubt that he would NOT do it.

Male approval is the most important thing To whom? or is that another massive generalisation?

Anyone who does not think that the lure of places like Amsterdam, especially for groups of men on their own, isn't the sex and drugs is fucking deluded.

Really? My dh has also been there, this was while we were dating, a pre arranged holiday with a tour group. No drugs & no sex.

Or am I fucking deluded?

You don't know me, or my dh. he doesn't do drugs/sex workers & I don't do deluded.

Why do you feel you're more important than them? IMO, the people who are suffering most are most important, and I will always prioritize them over someone else who is content. She isn't saying anything that you are accusing her of saying! And by your post, as quoted above, many married women are being raped & abused, does that mean that some can't be content & happy in their marriage, because not everyone experiences that happiness?

Woman & men, in all walks of life, in all jobs are being exploited & yes, abused. Does that mean no one ever is allowed to enjoy a job they do, because are suffering in a similar job?

I think men who use prostitutes are rapists with wallets instead of knives I don't think that is fair. Yes, using a prostitute is not a great thing, in fact it's bloody horrible. The women do consent though, and yes, I know that it probably forced consent (because the girls have someone forcing them to sell themselves) in many cases, due to them not having a choice, but surely it is a step too far to label all those who do use prostitutes as rapists?

But I am happy to be educated on that aspect, if someone thinks the same as the op.

Anyfucker these men are easily cut out of ones life, and tbh citing "but it's a male dominated environment is just another appeasement" sorry Nicki

Firstly I didn't say "BUT it's a male dominated environment". The use of the word "but" implies some kind of excusing on my part of their actions and that I am choosing to be around men that use prostitutes and thus accepting it.

Secondly, in the army you CANNOT choose not to be around these kinds of people. You sign on for three years and they pretty much own you for that time so you put up and shut up or life can be pretty hellish with no hope of career progression, certainly back when I was in. I could tell you stories of sexual harassment that would make your hair stand on end, however in the forces, back then, it was entirely normal and part of your lot as a woman soldier in the ordinary ranks.

Honestly I think there is an interesting and valid conversation to be had around the 'Invisible Men' issue, but not when it's framed in such a goady manner.

You've accused the women you want to have the discussion with of either colluding with or being in denial of their own husbands' abuse of women.

Which is both offensive and stupid.

I am interested to know - genuinely - why you would think that men who use prostitutes are rapists with wallets instead of knives. How do you come to that conclusion? Surely it is a consensual business transaction - if the woman in question hasn't been trafficked (and I believe it is a minority who are). I am not being goady. Perhaps I was before and I apologise.

Is this a moral issue for feminists?

How can forced consent ever be accepted as actual consent?
The word forced kinda negates the fact that any consent ever existed.
Don't you think?

JustTheRightBullets Thank you for taking the time to explain it, I hadn't thought of it as the alternative to a beating (which I do know happens, so why that didn't occur to me, I don't know)

How can forced consent ever be accepted as actual consent? The word forced kinda negates the fact that any consent ever existed.

I was trying to mean that someone other than the actual person paying for sex being the one doing the forcing.

I know that forced consent isn't consent, but in most cases, men using prostitutes aren't doing he forcing, are they?

Well aware I am not explaining it very well.

JustTheRightBullets I agree, totally! As I said, it just didn't occur to me before you explained it in that way!

They are men who are happy to have sex with someone who they know doesn't actually want to have sex with them

I wonder if they do know that though, many of them probably don't even care as long as they get what they want so probably don't even put that much thought in to it.

Still think it's unfair to compare them to rapists? Nope.

How would we classify young, attractive women who marry older, rich men? Let's say those men look more like Bernie Ecclestone than George Clooney. Are they in the same class as women who are paid directly for sex?

I agree on the point that men who use prostitutes are rapists with wallets.

Curwen, what "class" is that then ?

I get what you're saying CK and I agree to a certain extent. I do think women are very much in denial about what men are like, but only because it is a survival mechanism. If women were to openly acknowledge the extent of men's privilege and the myriad ways in which they take advantage of that, including prostitution, it would make it very hard to function in the world we live in. As far as I know, my DH doesn't watch any porn and has never visited a prostitute, but I am very aware that even though he is easily the kindest, warmest, most loving man I have ever met, he still has shown through his actions that he has in the past, and still does to a certain extent, consider women to be less important than him. If a man with a stable, good upbringing, no criminal tendencies, a good dad with a good job can have that attitude (and he is addressing it now, to his great credit) then I can see how so many men that are also upstanding members of the community, men whose wives trust them and believe they would "never do such a thing" are kidding themselves.

Prostitution is a business that generates many millions of pounds. It is not funded by a small group of lowlifes who can't get a real woman. It's sustained by "normal" men whose wives, sisters, mums and friends will never know what they really get up to.

Though it is very starkly put I do think there is some truth in your idea that on some level many women see prostitutes as not quite the same as them and somehow deserving of the treatment they are given.

If you are ok with prostitution then you absolutely must be ok with suggesting it to your daughter as a valid career option.
If you are ok with other people's daughters being prostitutes, but not your own, then have a long think about why that might be, and what that says about your attitude.

The class of coerced women who are accepting financial reward in exchange for sexual favours. Sex that they would not be interested in unless there was a financial exchange. The class that prostituted women belong to. Maybe 'class' was the wrong word. Would group be better, or collective?

I would group those women with all other women, women who live in a world where they are still so lacking in value as human beings that man will have sex with them knowing they don't want it. The fact that some women benefit in a monetary way from that doesn't change the fundamental fact that some men are happy to have sex with women who don't want sex with them. Whatever the reason the woman is having that unwanted sex - be it for money, to avoid sulking, or because there's a knife at her throat - the fact of the matter is the man is getting pleasure and enjoyment out of raping someone.

This is really interesting. We recently had this conversation at work ( in the context of child prostitution) I maintained that for adult women, it could be the least awful of an extremely limited set of options.

The fact that the term "child prostitution" even exists boggles me. It implies that those children are working, when in fact they are being abused. The same goes for "child porn" - in fact the term is "images of child sexual abuse."

Yours is the logical conclusion from the arguments presented here, Cailin. Given that the vast majority of financial power is in the hands of men all over the world, the vast majority of women must be beholden to men financially. Very few women are truly in a position whereby the can have a sexual relationship on an equal footing. Is this tantamount to rape within a relationship?