Any appetite for further discussion on 'trans-feminism'?

[CrewElla]

I made the mistake this morning of reading the comments on an article on the Guardian website re Kellie Maloney being 'outed' in the tabloids which led to me googling trans-feminism and coming across this article from the New Yorker: www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/08/04/woman-2

I haven't considered myself radical in the past and, at times, even (naively) said I had no need of feminism. Reading the New Yorker article I felt they so missed the point and tried to marginalise a view (woman have a need for spaces free from penises, whether the penis belongs to a man or a transwoman) that I don't think is that radical.

Am I being naive? Does anyone have the time/interest to read the article and share their views on it?

"Massive massive 1984 shit going on here. It makes me so fucking angry."

Women having their conversation shut down in what is meant to be a women friendly space. The fucking irony.

Interesting post, Gin.

I don't see why the logical conclusion to a man hating his body, feeling wrong, etc is to make the jump to 'ergo, I must be a woman'. Why the need to be a woman ? Biological urge or idealised version of what it means to live life as a woman ?

These threads were the very first time that I, as a woman, became aware that the sense of woman doesn't exist for me or many other women so what are transwomen feeling that we simply aren't ?

my Mother and best friend are hilarious people, but the conversations we have when in a female only group are exactly as your described. And I wouldn't be without them for the world

My own mother was a very damaged and depressed woman (most of the damage having been done by my father) but my female best friend and her mother are HILARIOUS and amazing, and have been an absolute lifeline to me over the past year. My mother died earlier this year and the two of them have been indescribably supportive. They've allowed me to fall apart, and given me what I need to carry on, basically. They've given me the space to process what's happened and consistently made sense of it all for me. Even when I really lost the plot they were unswervingly kind to me.

I don't know whether any of my male friends could have done the same for me, but I do know that I would never have asked it of them, whereas I knew that I could rely on these female friends to provide it for me.

as someone who experienced body dysmorphia, i can say that in my case it came at the end of a much longer process, beginning in early childhood with a lack of ontological security, combine that with a growing awareness of gender, and from then on god only knows what. my body dysmorphia only really came about once i'd committed to transition, but for other trans i suspect it comes when they first decide they are 'women'.

most of us rewrite out histories to support where we are now, but in trans people those histories are subject to massive amounts of revisionism. there was a paper some years back that documented it quite well - 'the transsexual construction of the true self' i think it was called.

it's worth bearing that in mind when trans talk about playing with barbies and such as being indicative of how long-staning their gender issues are, because what's really significant is the importance they attach to what should be insignificant events.

These threads were the very first time that I, as a woman, became aware that the sense of woman doesn't exist for me or many other women so what are transwomen feeling that we simply aren't?

^THIS!!!

WTF does it MEAN, to "feel like a woman"? I am a woman and I don't have any idea what it "feels like" to be a woman so what does that statement mean?!
I hate to labour a point but CBG has covered this here (google "culturallyboundgender we are all winston now" for the link-wary) too, and more eloquently than I ever could. I do sometimes wonder how Thomas Nagel would approach the trans identity question, and how trans theory would have developed if everyone was made to read "What Is It Like To Be A Bat?"

I think Garlic makes a really important point about how women interact with each other and express themselves when men are not around. The presence of a man, ever a really, really nice one, is like the boss turning up on the staff outing. The presence of a man changes things, we speak and act differently. At the risk of sounding like Eric Cantona, the lions and the gazelles may share the plains but the gazelles could only ever truly relax and stop being vigilant if they had their own lion-free island.

If we accept transwomen in women-only spaces then the freedom of being a woman amongst women is gone forever and it's never coming back.

Andie I'm sorry that you went through that experience. It sounds like you were badly traumatised by bullshit gender roles - people are just people.

CKD - i was pretty lucky in that i was percieved as being female pretty quickly, and it was mindblowing to me the difference it made when men were present. sitting in a cafe for example - all the women around laughing and joking - the second a man walked in the atmosphere totally changed, it was as though this one man bought with him the entire weight of male oppression. obviously it's not always like that, it's never seemed quite as bad when the demographic was younger/progressive, but it's still there.

the other shocking thing was how accustomed i had become to women behaving in such a way when i entered spaces. i even got irrate because women weren't quietening down because now i was seen as female.

gin - it's more about inadequate parenting, really. gender roles 'work' pretty well for the most part :/

The presence of a man, ever a really, really nice one, is like the boss turning up on the staff outing

Yes!! This is such a good analogy!

If we accept transwomen in women-only spaces then the freedom of being a woman amongst women is gone forever and it's never coming back

I completely see where you're coming from but I don't think this is the necessary outcome. Bio women are bio women and that's just not going away, ever, no matter how much trans women are traumatised by it.

For what it's worth, I predict that we'll have no choice about men coming into official "female only" spaces, but as a PP said, we're used to it, right? Women understand invasion and violation from babyhood. It's a crucial part of our identity. Men win. Let's not act like we're surprised.

I think that for a while at least, the only way for women to gather alone will be privately. The only way to guarantee the status of new members will be either a family member vouching for them, or examination of their genitals. It is what it is. Which is to say, patriarchy.

's more about inadequate parenting, really. gender roles 'work' pretty well for the most part :/

What do you mean by this, andie?

gin - as system of oppression it's pretty effective, don't you think? had my upbringing been 'normal' i would've settled into the male role pretty easily

ah ok - yes I get it. Sorry.

Gin your post at 21.39 was so insightful and well written I wish I could share it.
I, too, don't understand what it means to feel like a woman. I sometimes feel comfortable in my own skin, I sometimes feel awkward and out of place. Sometimes I am self assured, others vulnerable. I wear clothes that depend on my mood. I am a parent but also value my career. I have friends who are women and some who are men.
I just can't relate any of this, this 'who I am', to being a woman.

And I don't know how trans women can tell me they feel like a woman when it is something they have never been or experienced.

And makes a bit of a mockery of the idea that these are the same people who are demanding access to FAAB feminist meetings, if they aren't interested in talking about what is going to make up a vast amount of the conversation!

and in the case of radical feminism (which is where this all started, iirc), their participation could only be disruptive - given they have almost fundamentally different conceptions of gender

I haven't read any papers about that, andie, but I find your point really interesting from a psychological point of view. Due to various childhood-related issues of my own and their consequences, I'm having to 'reconstruct' myself which is a pretty strange experience. It's a matter of self-description: it has to begin with brutal self understanding, then picking out which bits of 'me' I want to keep and figuring out how to integrate them (er, myself) with the parts I have recently decided to change through learning. This is in line with schema therapy, although the schema texts don't go nearly as deep as I have to go. My own childhood's a mystery, and I had anorexic dysmorphia from about 10 to 17.

Leaping to conclusions here, I've imagined this will have some resonance for you. I fear it would feel less familiar to the vocal transactivists who're getting up all our noses. The feeling they give me, personally, is that they've substituted appearance for experience. I dislike this quality in anyone of any sex; it's excessively narcissistic, intellectually & emotionally lazy. It always leads the person to "tell others about themselves" (define others, in therapy-speak) with the aim of demonstrating their superiority. It's the reason I fell out with my gay best friend.

I fell out with him, but have other bio male friends of assorted genders & sexualities (some have all of them) who don't do this. Most have been exceptionally insightful and, while none have presumed to know more about being a woman than me, have actually been very thoughtful on the matter.

And I have needed friends to be thoughtful on this - tonight's posts about women's conversations have illuminated the painful disconnect I've often felt with women. I've always had close female friends and have always been a feminist, but suffered frequent social failures that I inadequately described as "not being girly enough". I knew that wasn't what I meant, exactly. What I meant has been described tonight. Growing up as the girl I was (fortunately in a less-gendered era,) being female was a punishable offence. Since I was female, I developed enough female relationship ability but was, I suppose, afraid to relax into my gender.

Massive ramble, I know, but I'm coming up to a namechange and feel a bit like bleeding all over the internet I thought others might relate to some of this, and it would be interesting to hear about similarities and differences.

garlic - completely relate. the best way i can describe transition was that it was a way of not having to be my self any longer. i'm a big fan of rd laing, and his book divided self had a profound effect on how i viewed my transition

Yeah, women just feel policed in the presence of men.

I think the question of why this is all happening now is it's part of the backlash against feminism. I can't see the difference between transactivism and the men's rights movement. There is a strong desire to silence women and prevent them organising without the policing presence of men.

I also think that feminism successfully presented women with an alternative to the gender role prescribed to them for millennia. However, this has now allowed the traditional feminine gender role to be sold back to women as a choice and not a prison. If you succumb to the carrot and stick pressure to perform femininity you can now present yourself as making an empowered choice as you could opt for the alternative of being a hairy-legged, unfuckable, butch, strident, uncool feminist. I think the pornification of society and the increased visibility of transwomen is part of this reification of traditional gender roles, where conservatism is now repackaged as rebellion and edginess. It allows people to feel better about doing as they are told rather than really being uppity. There is a concomitant punishment and ostracism of truly uppity people who resist gender conformity, who are now painted as the fusty old conservatives who need to die in a fire.

Thanks! This made me laugh: "i even got irate because women weren't quietening down because now i was seen as female."

So did the quote about how to pass as a woman!

"At the risk of sounding like Eric Cantona, the lions and the gazelles may share the plains but the gazelles could only ever truly relax and stop being vigilant if they had their own lion-free island."

Sorry to go off topic, but, this is why I love MN. Feminism, Eric Cantona and shades of David Attenborough on the same thread

As you were ...

the reification of gender roles is a real concern, and the stock trans narrative undoubtedly tries to do that. it wouldn't be so much of a problem, i don't think, if it were just personal justification for transition. but it's actually become a narrative that supposedly liberal/progressive types have picked up on. and you can see how dangerous it is when you look at the frequent stories of young children transitioning; in almost all cases there are examples of parents picking up on gender-nonconformity as a sign that something is wrong with their child, which is completely effed.

that all said - a great many trans people aren't stereotypically feminine, so...

This is telling to me, I just tried to google transmen rights and google automatically corrected it for me to transwomen rights; it gave me a quiet chuckle this morning.

I typed out a really long reply on my phone last night, pressed preview to check for the inevitable spelling mistakes and ended losing the whole post. That was a lot of energy wasted so I went to sleep.

My basic points were that I tried, and am trying, very hard not to make this thread about transwomen in general but about transwomen activists in particular and how I struggle with what they are saying about women.

I don't currently have need of female only HCP. It the past I've been able to use a male gestalt therapist through a period of major depression and currently see a male doctor for my on-going bastard PND. I do think it is very important that women have the choice of a female HCP if they want/need one and it offends me if I'm told that isn't a right.

I don't like being told I can find a new term if I don't like cis, woman is fine for me.

I started this thread because I am trying to engage with something that is interesting to me (perhaps part of my therapy), I am trying to understand why the transactivism, in relation to what they say about women, affects and grips me so much, and to challenge my stance on feminism.

I am not a radical feminist, I actually don't know what type of feminist I am (a tired one), so I wouldn't presume to impose myself on RadFem when I know it's a conference for like minded women. I am sure it would be an interesting conference, I would learn loads, be inspired, and maybe change some of my thought process but I would be false if I went. I would be lying to the other women there and that isn't something I would do.

When my best friend growing up went to join a black sorority at uni (just outed myself as an ex-pat) I didn't try to join too. I recognised the need for those women to have a space of like minded women in which to feel supported and address the issues affecting them. Though I empathise with the struggles of black woman (or Koreans living in North America, or the Jewish diaspora, etc. - these are all cultures that had a great influence on me growing up) I don't presume to know what it is like for them nor do I want to invade their spaces they've created to feel safe.

This is long, rambling, and I'm not sure of my point. My sons are waking up and it's time to get going with the day.

Thank you to all for engaging with this thread. I am reading every posts, going off and googling loads, and generally appreciate reading the conversation.

I also think that feminism successfully presented women with an alternative to the gender role prescribed to them for millennia. However, this has now allowed the traditional feminine gender role to be sold back to women as a choice and not a prison. If you succumb to the carrot and stick pressure to perform femininity you can now present yourself as making an empowered choice as you could opt for the alternative of being a hairy-legged, unfuckable, butch, strident, uncool feminist. I think the pornification of society and the increased visibility of transwomen is part of this reification of traditional gender roles, where conservatism is now repackaged as rebellion and edginess. It allows people to feel better about doing as they are told rather than really being uppity. There is a concomitant punishment and ostracism of truly uppity people who resist gender conformity, who are now painted as the fusty old conservatives who need to die in a fire

I think this is amazing. Really insightful.

One of the vexing things for me about this amalgamation of trans activism and feminist ideas is it sort-of mangles feminism. It takes ideas around gender being a caste system that works to keep women oppressed by men, and churns out 'people who like being oppressed by men are women'. It makes no sense.
Initially, queer theory was seen by its proponents as a great way of challenging gender roles too.
It seems like there's a backlash to every wave of feminism that proposes women are more than the sum of their gendered characteristics.
I don't see this as any different.
I was interviewed for that piece and I pointed out that lesbian separatists are excluded from mixed groups. Didn't make it in for some reason.

I personally think that women who aren't radical feminists should be able to come to radical feminist events if they're happy to agree with the intention of the event. So not if you're going to sit and argue in defense of prostitution or marriage or gender roles - that'd be kind-of rude. But all the RF events I've been to have had womanists, anti-pornstitution liberal feminists etc in attendance.