Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Any appetite for further discussion on 'trans-feminism'?

502 replies

CrewElla · 24/08/2014 09:06

I made the mistake this morning of reading the comments on an article on the Guardian website re Kellie Maloney being 'outed' in the tabloids which led to me googling trans-feminism and coming across this article from the New Yorker: www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/08/04/woman-2

I haven't considered myself radical in the past and, at times, even (naively) said I had no need of feminism. Reading the New Yorker article I felt they so missed the point and tried to marginalise a view (woman have a need for spaces free from penises, whether the penis belongs to a man or a transwoman) that I don't think is that radical.

Am I being naive? Does anyone have the time/interest to read the article and share their views on it?

OP posts:
kim147 · 28/08/2014 16:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

vezzie · 28/08/2014 16:47

what is the point you are trying to make, kim - that was a question, not a point.

"how do you know?"
suppose the poster answers "I don't"

so - what is your point?

JudysPriest · 28/08/2014 16:52

I'm interested too Vezzie, cos it feels like the point is 'when doing something that involves touching another's body whether medically or intimately you should ensure you have informed consent, unless you're trans'

ApocalypseThen · 28/08/2014 17:01

But how do you know she was a woman born woman?

There were a few things. First if all, she had had a miscarriage herself and knew how I was feeling. Second of all, there's a way women who are raised women communicate at these times, so even if she hadn't the same experience, the socialized woman to woman atmosphere would have been there. And thirdly, I know it's psychologically important to transwomen to believe they pass, but you can tell from the kind of distance at which these procedures are carried out.

gincamparidryvermouth · 28/08/2014 17:01

So basically, kim, your reaction to me saying "I don't want a person born and socialised male to perform a smear on me" is to say "well, how about if the person born male tricked you?" That's your solution.

You do not "get it."

MoreCrackThanHarlem · 28/08/2014 17:16

I, personally, wouldn't be uncomfortable sharing a spa or changing room with a trans woman.

I would feel uncomfortable with a trans woman performing a procedure on me where I had specifically requested a female professional. I would feel the same in a female only support group or counselling session. So basically anywhere I feel vulnerable and wish to be in an all female environment. I realise this will be different depending on the individual.

I also believe it's unfair that trans women can be considered for female only bursaries, for example, or awarded a scholarship or academic prize set aside for women.
I resent the awarding of any special privilege reserved for women under represented in that particular field.

MrsTerryPratchett · 28/08/2014 17:25

What is hard to take, as I unpick my issues, is that 'safe', women-only spaces are a shitty compromise in themselves. I wish I didn't need them. I wish there was no gender issue and that sexual assault, rape, harassment and all those fun things didn't exist. I wish women hadn't had to carve out a few spaces in the world because so much space is taken up with male privilege. To have even that shitty compromise compromised further is rage-inducing.

BTW people who mentioned a lesbian HCP... My Nurse Practitioner, who has had more than a passing acquaintance with my vagina, managed to drop some pronouns into the conversation as I was booking my smear/check-up so that I knew she has a female partner. I don't know if it was a coincidence that she let me know before any intimate exams happened, I suspect not. I don't give a shiny shite about her sexuality, I do care that she is a woman. It gave me the chance to make decisions about my body.

GarlicAugustus · 28/08/2014 17:26

Kim.

In my opinion, post-op trans women should be free to use women-only recreational spaces where women might be naked. They should be accommodated in women's hospital wards and prisons. This is because their body's more like a woman's than a man's.

By the same token, I don't feel pre-op trans women should expect such access though they may request it. This is extra important because there are such things as men who pretend to be women for criminal reasons.

When it comes to women's health care, I feel it's inappropriate to demand that trans women step in as female HCPs. This is because only bio women have the lifetime's experience of routine medical intervention. You've now joined the ranks of those whose sexuality requires constant monitoring of your sexual health but you haven't had it several times a year, every year, since your early teens. It's unpleasant, uncomfortable, and makes us very vulnerable to the HCP even though we're not in an emergency situation. I don't mind if a man does mine, but still vastly prefer a woman because she's been through this herself (and knows what that cervical snip feels like!) You can know a lot of things, but you can't know the feeling of a metal pincer cutting into your cervix. All bio women do.

The same applies x100 for mental healthcare. My longest-term therapist was a man. I used to get terribly annoyed with him that, despite years of experience and a top reputation, he did not and would not understand many of the basic facts about a woman's life. If this forum had been available then, I'd have known the language to express my feelings - and fired him! - but, as it was, I put up with substandard treatment.

Similar issues apply to trans women (and bio men) who assume an equal role in discussions of women's health and reproduction. Before discovering Paris Fucking Lees, I'd have said trans women are qualified to share discussions about sexual harassment, but she massively doesn't get it and I've changed my mind.

None of this means "I don't like trans people". I like people based on who they are, not their genitals. What I really want is for the gender binary to melt away. I want trans people to do something about it. But, meanwhile, since it's obvious that you deem yourself 'woman', I afford you the courtesy of treating you as a woman.

But you're not a woman who shares our reproductive health concerns, neither did you grow up as a girl. Therefore I'd ask you for reciprocal courtesy - don't ask me to deny my woman's history just because you haven't got the same.

... and ... as I'm still going through the World's Longest Menopause, I'd love to know how many trans women envy me this!! Or even know what it entails.

GarlicAugustus · 28/08/2014 17:28

"informed consent, unless you're trans"

I could have summarised xty paragraphs in five words!

vezzie · 28/08/2014 17:30

Where it all goes wrong for me, and I realise that not everyone shares this disposition, is that there seems to be an elision of the boundaries between matters of justice and equal rights; and giving of one's personal self for another person's emotional well-being.

I feel a need for boundaries in my life. Really fucking strong ones because I am an introvert. I will be polite to everyone day in day out, but London polite - not inviting strangers to my house polite.

As a woman I am constantly finding that the expectations on me to be more than London-polite are very high. Men want to talk to me a lot. Women want me to be nice to their children a lot. I manage, it's not the end of the world. Oh, except it is, when someone has maneuvered me into a situation where I supposedly owe them sex or something. But, you know, I get by.

This whole thing - the lack of any attempt to formally define the "e" in "TERF" - strikes me as yet another assumption that my social boundaries don't matter, and my social emotional self is up for grabs as much as my absolute requirement to be fair in material (eg employment) terms.

And - the smear test. It not being ok to refuse a transwoman doing this, is prioritising their right to social and emotional niceties of me, over my right to enforce the boundaries of my body.

I know it is tricky to define - where and when does actual justice blur off into just being social niceties. But it is a distinction that matters to me, because managing social demands on me to be sweet, without making me susceptible to unpleasantness, is an enormous drain on my daily energy.

Hakluyt · 28/08/2014 17:36

And at the risk of being dropped from the "right on" club, I question how much energy, brain power, printing ink and computer memory this is taking up. There are still so many feminist battles to fight- why is this particular debate taking over?

SevenZarkSeven · 28/08/2014 17:41

I agree hakluyt I was thinking that at work earlier.

Hakluyt · 28/08/2014 17:45

When I was a young feminist, back in the day when it were all fields round here, lesbians were very glamorous and exciting, and just a little bit edgy and shocking.........

Well, they were it us wide eyed young heterosexual women anyway. Generally,they didn't feel that way about themselves!

CaptChaos · 28/08/2014 17:50

TERF no longer means what it was set up to mean though. It now seems to mean 'anyone that questions what a small number of trans*women and their friends say about the experiences of women'. It might not have been a slur to start with, but it sure as hell is now.

There was an article I read the other day where a Trans*woman was sighing about having their girlhood 'stolen' from them, and then proceeded to describe a girlhood most of us wouldn't recognise, full of dolly's teaparties and frills and flounces. It made no mention of being told to sit still, be nice, be quiet, sit with your knees together, don't fight, don't roughhouse, speak when you're spoken to, your opinions meaning nothing much and on and on.

I would be very unhappy if a person with a penis tried to do my smear, no matter how well they 'passed', it's a trust issue. (and trust me, Paris Lees... doesn't pass, she might look all feminine, but the minute she opens her mouth you can tell from the overwhelming sense of entitlement that she wasn't always thus)

ApocalypseThen · 28/08/2014 18:10

why is this particular debate taking over?

I think it's because we've come to the point where there's a real question about what women are for. Twenty years ago, that might have been somewhat straightforward, but it's not so easy now that women are rejecting sex object baby maker, what now? I think the trans issue asks us to think about what women even are - if anything.

CoteDAzur · 28/08/2014 18:19

"think about what women even are - if anything"

The usual definition of "woman" as "adult human female" is a perfectly good one.

MrsTerryPratchett · 28/08/2014 18:23

That's interesting Capt. I wonder, and maybe someone could give me some idea, if feminism 'won' (I realise this is a bizarre and impossible concept) and gender wasn't an issue any more, how would transpeople feel about that?

If my DD and every other child was free to play with fairies or robots, dress in frills or camo, be a nurse or a fire fighter, stay at home or work, or both, share housework with her partner if she chooses to have one, if there was no equality issues in jobs, pay, education, sex, crime, child-rearing etc. If anyone could shave or not, wear make-up or not, wear heels or not, have a handbag or not... Where does that leave us?

JudysPriest · 28/08/2014 18:42

I wondered that MrsTP (love the name), educating myself on Trans* experiences led me to Tumblr. An eye opening experience.

Transfat, Kin, Transethnic.

How we identify ourselves is changing rapidly.

MrsTerryPratchett · 28/08/2014 18:47

Glad you like the name Judys. My actual DH does wonder why I take Terry's last name but not his! Grin

I know a few trans people in RL but really only talk about this stuff on here.

gincamparidryvermouth · 28/08/2014 21:39

This is such an interesting thread - so many thought-provoking posts. I'm really grateful to everyone who's taken part.

I was mulling it over all the way home on the train. Two posts in particular, along with Kim's posts, have really made me think; and I'd like to be very clear, before I say anything else, that I'm not claiming to be expanding on what the posters in question were saying or extrapolating from what they said. I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, I'm just trying to articulate my own (pretty inchoate) views.

This is an absurdly long post. The tldr, basically, is "I think women living under patriarchy communicate with other women in a unique way which is necessarily inaccesible to males, and therefore I wonder about the authenticity of the version of femaleness that transwomen base their female identity on."

In response to kim asking how Apocalypse knew that her sonographer was born female, Apocalypse said (among other very interesting points) there's a way women who are raised women communicate at these times, so even if she hadn't the same experience, the socialized woman to woman atmosphere would have been there.
This is REALLY interesting to me - so obvious now that it's been pointed out but I just never really thought about it before. I have never had a miscarriage, but I have female friends, family and acquaintances who have suffered miscarriages, and they've all spoken about the experience to me and in front of me in situations when no males were present. So even though I've never suffered this very unique loss, I know how women speak to each other about it. I've also been present when they've spoken about miscarriage in the presence of males, and the conversation is different.

This made me think about how women talk to each other and relate to each other when no males are present; and I think it is a "thing," if you know what I mean. I have very good male friends and very good female friends, and we all love each other and get on very well, and the conversation is in no way stilted when we are in mixed-sex groups. However, the conversation is different, to me, when there are no males present. Not just the topics we talk about, but also the way we talk and the way we listen, if that makes sense? It isn't worse, but it is definitely different. And, crucially, I have never seen my experience of females relating to females in private depicted accurately anywhere. CBG talks about this so eloquently here (google "culturallyboundgender i'm not like those other girls" if you're link-wary).
Basically what she says is that mainstream media's depictions of female relationships are almost always written by men (or edited by men, or in some way influenced by men's ideas of what female relationships looks like) and they are therefore inaccurate and inauthentic, and don't really ring true to actual women. I agree with her. The only TV show I can think of off the top of my head which features woman-to-woman conversations that seem really realistic to me is Roseanne, particularly when Roseanne is talking to her sister. Obviously, Roseanne was massive in its day so there were huge numbers of writers involved, but Roseanne Barr was very heavily involved in the writing and I think it shows.

What I'm trying to say is that, in my own experience, with my own friendship groups, over the course of my life, the presence of males subtly but significantly alters the way the women relate to each other. This means that the way females relate to each other is invisible to males (observer effect): we don't do it when they're around, and it isn't accurately replicated in movies or TV shows.

The reason I am wittering on about this is because kim asked, repeatedly, how we would know if a woman we were dealing with had a penis (or had had a penis) if they looked very feminine when we met them. To me this sounds like from kim's point of view (and I am NOT saying this an an accusation, but only as my attempt to understand what you are saying, kim - I know that you'll tell me if I'm wrong) the only, or at least the most important, defining characteristic of being a woman is looking like a woman.

And obviously I don't think that a particular appearance is the essence of being female. But it has also made me think about how transwomen think born women relate to each other. Transwomen are obviously at a disadvantage here, because having been born male and socialised as male, they have never really been exposed to female-only spaces, so where do they get their ideas about how females relate to each other? From TV? From movies? From adverts? None of those is an accurate representation in my opinion: none of them depicts the most common scenes from my own best friendship, which involve lying on sofas and either watching gemstv and shouting with outrage at how ugly the jewellery is and how hilarious the prices are, literally for hours on end, or putting Bad Boys on for the 40th time and then making the same comments at the same points. Anyway... I do wonder how the "hidden-ness" of women's relationships impacts on a transwoman's ability to pass.

It's also made me look again at the very strong push among vocal transactivists to shut down conversations about menarche, menstruation, pregnancy, female contraceptives, abortion, menopause etc. Previously I thought that the reason transwomen disliked these conversations was because transwomen had never and wold never experienced menarche, menstruation, pregnancy, female contraceptives, abortion and menopause.
Now I wonder if it's because transwomen's version of womanhood was formed with absolutely no exposure to these conversations, which typically happen only between women, and are NOT replicated in TV or film representations of women's conversations. So not only have transwomen never had any of those experiences themselves, but they have also never had exposure to women's conversations about them, and that is really threatening. I have never had a baby (I've been pregnant twice and had two abortions) but I have been privy to countless conversations about pregnancy and childbirth by virtue of being a woman myself; and I've never felt the need to shut down a conversation about pregnancy or childbirth that was happening in my presence, probably because I have been exposed to them since I was quite young and I am consequently fluent in the language now.

The other comment that really made me think was CaptChaos's mention of a transwoman lamenting having been robbed of a girlhood most of us wouldn't recognise, full of dolly's teaparties and frills and flounces. I spent my own girlhood dragging around a "doll" (if you could even call it that) which was fucking HIDEOUS, in every way imaginable: it was bigger than me, for a start; it had a rigid moulded plastic face and a fabric body tightly stuffed with wadding; the top of its head was made of fabric shaped like a dunce's cap and stuffed with wadding so it pointed straight up. I was obsessed with it and took it everywhere so it was filthy - absolutely rancid. No fucking way could you have taken that thing to a tea party. My sister and I loved making fires and snuck away craftily with our mother's matches whenever we could, and went and crouched behind the trees at the back of the garden, furiously trying to set dry leaves alight. I spent hours with my best friend gathering "poisonous" berries in her garden to make a potion to kill our mortal enemy. We also spent a LOT of time in her swimming pool, which was perfectly circular, running round and round right up against the wall, trying to create a really powerful vortex into which we could lure her sister Confused

Which is all to say, I do not recognise or identify with the girlhood or the womanhood that the most vocal transwomen describe, either in terms of how they are supposedly experienced firsthand or in terms of what the relationships between girls and women are supposed to look like. It really concerns me that my own life is not good enough (?) to qualify as "woman" because it doesn't look like man-made versions of girlhood and womanhood.

CKDexterHaven · 28/08/2014 21:46

I find the idea of being medically examined or counselled by someone I think is a woman but who is not a woman incredibly creepy and unethical. When Kim keeps reiterating 'How would you know if someone had a penis?' I find it creepy. For me it is not about the penis, it is about whether or not someone is a man because, like it or not, there are very good reasons for women needing to know who is a man.

I think there is also a lot of hypocrisy against radical feminism on this issue. It really is a case of the Emperor's New Clothes. The way that mainstream society talks about transgenderism shows that people do not really think of transpeople as their chosen gender, but it is only radical feminists that get attacked as TERFs.

For example, in media and social media reactions to Laverne Cox appearing at the Emmys, there was lots of talk of 'bravery', and 'challenging stereotypes' and 'breaking down doors' and 'fabulousness' and 'wow, she looks better than me'. If people really thought of Laverne as a woman and not as a gay man in a dress then why would they need to call Laverne 'brave'? What stereotypes would Laverne be breaking down? Why would they need to express surprise at how well Laverne passes? Why would they use the same kind of camp terminology usually reserved for Rupaul? Laverne performs femininity very well. Laverne looks and acts like Laverne is in a never-ending beauty pageant. If a woman did this it would seem fake and forced, she would be ridiculed for simpering. If people really thought of Laverne as a woman they would ridicule Laverne as the black Anne Hathaway.

The same goes for Kellie Maloney. People call Kellie 'brave' and 'inspirational' because mentally they're seeing a macho boxing promoter wearing make-up and a dress. If they really thought of Kellie as a woman then what the fuck's brave or exceptional about wearing make-up and a dress? People attack radfems for expressing themselves but their own words betray how they are truly thinking.

CKDexterHaven · 28/08/2014 21:55

I can't believe I've had a comment deleted for saying Paris Lees is a man. Paris is a dangerous person who claims that women enjoy sexual harassment but if you point out the person saying this is a man, not a woman, a hugely important point given the context of someone encouraging street harassment of women then you get silenced. It really is like Big Brother demanding you say 2+2=5.

JudysPriest · 28/08/2014 22:03

Gin, your post really spoke to me. I've always seen being a woman as just being a person with social disadvantages and some gynae problems. As just something that's there that matters to some and not to others. I'm lucky in that the most important males in my life, father, husband and son seem to see me as I see me. Person, not female.

But your description of the conversations rung so true, my Mother and best friend are hilarious people, but the conversations we have when in a female only group are exactly as your described. And I wouldn't be without them for the world.

"If a woman did this it would seem fake and forced, she would be ridiculed for simpering."

It's the old joke, if you want to pass as a woman put on no make up and joggie bottoms and drag 3 screaming kids round a supermarket.

gincamparidryvermouth · 28/08/2014 22:03

Paris is a dangerous person who claims that women enjoy sexual harassment but if you point out the person saying this is a man, not a woman, a hugely important point given the context of someone encouraging street harassment of women then you get silenced. It really is like Big Brother demanding you say 2+2=5

100% agree with you CK

Massive massive 1984 shit going on here. It makes me so fucking angry.

gincamparidryvermouth · 28/08/2014 22:06

It's the old joke, if you want to pass as a woman put on no make up and joggie bottoms and drag 3 screaming kids round a supermarket

I've never heard this but I just literally laughed out loud!

Swipe left for the next trending thread