Frank Maloney - Gender Reassignment

[CKDexterHaven]

Lived over 60 years with full male privileges - Check
Rose to the top of a male-dominated profession - Check
Right-wing political candidate for UKIP - Check
Homophobic public comments - Check
Believes in family values and traditional morality - Check
Believes in a 'female brain' (like people used to believe in a 'negro brain' and a 'Jewish brain') - Check

Nasty radical feminists are meant to be the reactionary ones but, to me, it is the transactivist movement that is conservative, homophobic and longs for the days when homosexuality was criminalised and men were men and women were women.

Thanks Lynette.

sorry i have cross-posted with everyone

i don't know what it is like to feel female. i only know what it is like to feel like me

I believe I am right that some (many? I don't know) transpeople would be happy with the idea that gender is a social construct?

It seems to me many trans people are just trying to cope in a world that is telling them who they are, is not acceptable.

That is very, very different from spewing homophobia and getting a sympthetic platform from the LGBT community to do it. It's not worth comparing the one to the other.

Cross post with petula but agree 100%

i don't know what it is like to feel female. i only know what it is like to feel like me

Petula you have summed up exactly how I feel. I've been nervous about expressing it until this thread.

I once asked a transwoman what was meant by 'feeling like a woman' and got the reply that is was subjective and whatever each individual person interpreted it as. But if there's no objective standard of 'feeling like a woman' then how can you possibly know that your feelings define you as a woman?

I also think the issue of transmen is a world away from transwomen. A member of an oppressed group wanting to become a member of the oppressor group is kind of logical and understandable. It's like black people using skin-lightening creams. The beauty industry is exploiting racism but it's thoroughly understandable why someone would want lighter skin in a world that values only light skin. Also a transman going into a male prison would be the person at risk, as opposed to a transwoman going into a female prison.

It's not right that the people who makes our lives shit, who curtail our freedoms and who get all the breaks we're denied, can suddenly say 'I'm one of you now. I lived life exactly like you. I can understand all your experiences. I can speak for you. I can use all your facilities. I can enter your safe spaces. I can play on your sports teams. I can apply for jobs and scholarships set aside for you. I can skew the statistics on your participation in public life. I can skew the statistics on your participation in crime.'

See ... I don't have an issue with someone who is desperately unhappy saying 'I think I will be happy if I do this, I think I feel like a woman'. It doesn't bother me that this requires subjectivity or a leap of faith, depending how you view it.

What bothers me is when we're not looking at people trying to cope - which is a situation I'd sympathize with - but people insisting that other marginalized groups must reinforce a damaging ideology an their own expense.

That is what is happening here.

Regardless of what anyone thinks about people who identify as trans or cis, there is no reason to claim that every single person has a gender identity.

I don't have a gender identity either. My biological sex is female, but I don't identify with a lot of things that are designated as feminine. I suspect that is due to incorrect labelling of things as male o female rather than me having a male brain in a female body.

i hate the fact that so many people live in a world where they feel that they don't fit in. but in a world where the setup is that you need to be male, educated, wealthy, white, able-bodied, heterosexual, express yourself in a traditionally masculine way and enjoy traditionally masculine pursuits to fit in, it's obvious that the majority will feel out of place to a greater or lesser extent

I think there is a lot of muddled thinking caused by the use if the word "gender". Some people use it as a euphemism for sex, others (including the WHO) use it to describe sex roles or societal expectations imposed on each sex. Now it is used by gender/queer theorists to mean "gender identity" which itself has a controversial meaning. The only acceptable meaning by the most vocal transactivists (including those who killed the Newsnignt piece last night) is that this is the sole factor in the determination of whether one is a woman or man or even as female or male. No other factors indicating sex (chromosomes, sex organs, hormones, secondary sex characteristics) are to be taken into account. They can't explain why none of these other factors are relevant nor what this gender identity means. I think "gender identity" can only be the knowledge of your sex. Children take a few years to realise they are one of two sexes and will grow up to be the adult version of their own sex. I can accept that on that definition, my gender identity is female. I know I am female and I have no psychological distress at being a woman. I utterly reject gender/sex roles though so I would never accept a label that suggests I accept those.

I also agree that sex is not assigned at birth. It is simply observed. Some intersex conditions may not be diagnosed at birth but that has nothing to do with trans. A man who has fathered children is clearly not intersex.

There was a poster a while back who worked on a sex line (I don't feel right naming her) who said that fantasies of being a "sexy" woman was very common. LRD I understand you're not comfortable naming fetishes but sometimes it's blindingly obvious. Look at some of the selfies used on twitter. If someone walks down the street with their partner on a dog leash, it's fairly safe to assume there's some fetish behaviour going on. I think we as women, even those of us regularly called TERFs hold back from calling AGP not because we don't think it but because we're too polite. But I have no intention of being co-opted into participating in anyone else's fetish.

has there been any reaction from the lgb community?

Yes it's like black people using skin lightening creams and white people using tanning creams/beds etc.

You lot are so disassociated from what feminism means to me.

I have pmed you floundering

flora - but frankly, if someone walks down the street with their partner on a dog leash, I really don't care - not unless there's a gender hierarchy going on too (and I grant, they are hard to separate).

I'm not sure why I'd care in this case.

It seems to me a side issue to demanding we all fall in line with the ideology of gender.

It seems to me many trans people are just trying to cope in a world that is telling them who they are, is not acceptable.

^ This exactly.

Fascinating if scary thread.

I wish people would just explain WHY the trans* version of 'gender identity' is right and everyone who disagrees is wrong. What is so bloody hard about that??

If I am wrong I would be the first person to turn around and admit it, I'm not trans, I don't know what it's like and I am loathe to speculate so I won't and don't - but at the moment refusing to accept that I am cisgender or with the trans definition of gender identity seems to be getting me in the shit with various groups and I want to know WHY so I can decide if I have made a mistake or not.

Is anyone on the gender identity is innate side going to actually explain?

I don't identify with a lot of things that are designated as feminine. I suspect that is due to incorrect labelling of things as male o female rather than me having a male brain in a female body

You've nailed it here for me.

te - exactly!

Or, what I don't understand is - can't we accept it might be different for different people?

Identity politics is really the narcissistic politics of the selfie age, isn't it? It might be a depressing thought but our identities aren't self-defined. Our identities are how other people see us and accordingly treat us. If we all got rounded up and sent to camps tomorrow they're not going to segregate us according to how we self-identify, are they? If a deadly virus spreads throughout the world they're not going to decide who gets the vaccine first based on self-categorisation.

I'm a woman because of biology and because of my experiences based upon how the world treats women. If the world hasn't treated you that way then you're never, never, never going to get it, and that's precisely why you'll never understand why women (and not just feminists) are deeply concerned about this issue.

I like this

Or, what I don't understand is - can't we accept it might be different for different people?

I'd be happy with that.

I didn't say transgenderism was like black people using skin-lightening creams. I was using that analogy to say it's understandable that members of oppressed groups seek to identify as members of the oppressor group, but it's neither a great personal nor societal solution.

Members of an oppressor group seeking membership of an oppressed group may be acting for personal safety or for far more nefarious reasons.

Sorry, just being slow - who said you did say that, CK?