Frank Maloney - Gender Reassignment

[CKDexterHaven]

Lived over 60 years with full male privileges - Check
Rose to the top of a male-dominated profession - Check
Right-wing political candidate for UKIP - Check
Homophobic public comments - Check
Believes in family values and traditional morality - Check
Believes in a 'female brain' (like people used to believe in a 'negro brain' and a 'Jewish brain') - Check

Nasty radical feminists are meant to be the reactionary ones but, to me, it is the transactivist movement that is conservative, homophobic and longs for the days when homosexuality was criminalised and men were men and women were women.

Honestly, saying 'the vast majority of people identity as cisgender' - or arguing against it - is a red herring.

In 1900, virtually no-one 'identified' as homosexual - or for that matter heterosexual. That doesn't mean sexuality was radically different. It meant that much of the perfectly normal spectrum of sexual orientations was stigmatized.

In the same way, today, it you don't fit a narrow stereotype of 'masculine' or 'feminine' you're stigmatized. 'Identifying' as one thing or the other doesn't help one bit to solve the problem of that stigma.

I too am really confused and feel I am coming late to an argument.

Could someone briefly sum up for me why feminists don't like MTF transpeople?

Do the PP know any transgender people? I have a good friend who is FTM and know a few other people who are FTM. Fwiw all of them seem totally "authentic", not that it is my place to judge.

Itsfab - Frank Maloney a boxer has decided he would rather be a woman than a man.

He has chosen the name Kellie. (Obviously some don't like his choice) Can you imagine a post saying how many black teenagers do you know called XXXX?

While he was living his life as a man he said some things that some feminists didn't agree with.

There are many who get quite worked up about men wanting to become women. Radical feminists tend to be quite vocal about it. Then there are just ordinary MNetters who don't like it either.

I feel desperately sorry for anyone who is questioning their identity and going through such a traumatic process. But that does not mean I must just meekly agree and not challenge the concept of gender.

I wish your child all the best.

Cisgender does not automatically mean "happy with the inequalities of gender roles enforced by the patriarchy". I'm cisgender and I still want equality for all genders and for the restrictive aspects of gender roles to be deconstructed - i.e., the stereotypes of women being homemakers and men being breadwinners.

bif - sorry, but that is exceptionally rude.

You have no idea what anyone else's experience is.

So you were raised female and always identified as female. Whoopie-do.

What do you propose for those (many) people who do not identify that way? Or who have experienced perfectly normal changes in how they identify?

Many, many women (and some men) go through periods of feeling they're not 'real women' or 'real girls' or of wanting to be men. Who are you to claim that doesn't happen?

I was born with a vagina, raised as a female and have always identified as female. I imagine the same is true of most women in this group (although I wouldn't want to make assumptions)

What do you mean, you wouldn't want to make assumptions? What is your entire position apart from assumptions?

'I'm cisgender and I still want equality for all genders and for the restrictive aspects of gender roles to be deconstructed - i.e., the stereotypes of women being homemakers and men being breadwinners.'

Please tell me you don't think that's all there is to it? That if we just got rid of those two tiny stereotypes we'd all be fine?

I don't have a gender identity. Not everyone does. I've not heard anyone claim before that everyone does. It seems a very repressive and exclusionary statement.

No they don't bi.

You can stand there and say 'everyone else agrees with me!' all you want.

I am not trans and I am not cisgender because Gender Identity Does Not Exist.

What do you think the point of feminism is if not to stamp out the idea of fixed gender identity and all the limiting crap that goes with it.

Or maybe I have heard it before, but not from feminists of any stripe as far as I remember.

I felt so much more comfortable with myself when someone (it was sakura who used to post here) walked me through the idea of 'gender' being a social construct that didn't have to be inherent in who I was.

Lots of women feel like this. I'm sure lots of men feel like this. You can just accept you like doing the things you like. You don't have to feel guilty for failing to live up to things any more. I think rejecting the idea of gender identity is also helpful in that you can own your feelings. Eg., if I feel I really want to have children, that is my feeling. It's not some function of me being a woman, that means I'm broody and daft and probably not career minded - it's just me.

LRD I'm sorry if I came across as rude, I was just trying to explain the definitions of the terms I was using as I have learned them.

I never claimed that. You seem to be confusing gender identity with dissatisfaction with gender stereotypes. There is a difference between identifying as a different gender to the one you were raised as, and being dissatisfied with the limitations of current gender roles.

I am fully aware that there are many, many problematic stereotypes in current society, I was simply using the ones I did as an example - that is after all, what i.e. means.

But why don't they like it?

Genuinely interested.

I like being a woman. I am not particularly traditional or 'feminine', I consider myself a feminist. But I do feel proud to be a woman. If switching were as easy as clicking your fingers, I wouldn't choose to be a man. Even with all the privilege that confers.

Thanks for apologizing, I appreciate it.

But, I don't identify as a different gender. I don't identify as a gender. Or, to be specific, I am well aware I live in a world where my experience is shaped by expectations of gender. So I know I've received female-gender 'conditoning' and can't really hope to escape it completely. But that doesn't mean I have to accept any gender identity, does it?

It's oppressive.

And sorry, I misread you - 'i.e' means 'this example, only this example'. You meant 'eg' ('for example, not limited to this example').

But what is gender identity? Just a feeling? What is a woman then?

Lots of people don't agree with that definition though.

And if that is really what you believe you have to have a better answer than 'this is what I have learned gender identity means' why does it mean that? Who decided? Do you really truly agree with that? Is this definition of gender identity going to be harmful or helpful to people who are fighting oppression because of their gender?

bi & merengue, what does "woman" mean to you, in terms of identifying with the word vis a vis gender?

YY LRD
Gender can fuck off.

Amen to that, briar.

You seem to be confusing gender identity with dissatisfaction with gender stereotypes. There is a difference between identifying as a different gender to the one you were raised as, and being dissatisfied with the limitations of current gender roles.

So what's the difference?

Just a heads up: telling people that they "seem to be confused" comes across as fucking rude. You've already said that you don't mean to be rude, so I'm assuming you don't know that being patronising and condescending is often interpreted as rudeness and you might want to avoid it in future.

I am not cis anything, thanks.

I am Captain Chaos, person. At times, I've done traditionally feminine things, and at others traditionally masculine things. This has never meant that I 'identify' as anything other than Captain Chaos, person.

It is society which determines how I will be related to, if I have long hair and breasts, then I will be treated in a certain way by society, if I cut all my hair off and bind my breasts, I will be treated in another way. My gender hasn't changed at all. Nothing has changed.

Rejection of gender?
I'm home. :)

feminists don't dislike transpeople. but there is a fundamental disagreement because most feminists reject gender as intrinsic and say that it is constructed by society, but transgender theory reinforces gender as something that is intrinsic and that there is a male brain / female brain