Frank Maloney - Gender Reassignment

[CKDexterHaven]

Lived over 60 years with full male privileges - Check
Rose to the top of a male-dominated profession - Check
Right-wing political candidate for UKIP - Check
Homophobic public comments - Check
Believes in family values and traditional morality - Check
Believes in a 'female brain' (like people used to believe in a 'negro brain' and a 'Jewish brain') - Check

Nasty radical feminists are meant to be the reactionary ones but, to me, it is the transactivist movement that is conservative, homophobic and longs for the days when homosexuality was criminalised and men were men and women were women.

I'm a bit suprised that people refer to him as "she" on this thread. A 60+ year old extremely privileged homophobic man suddenly decides to transition now...no way I'm going to think of him as a woman.

Transgenderism just comes across to me as a form of disordered thinking that, because 1) it tends to affect men more and 2) is bound up with the sensitive issues of sex and sexuality, has become a cause celebre to the extent that we now have to accept and accommodate this disordered thinking in a way that we would never ever accept from other people with disordered thoughts

As the mother of a daughter who is coming out as trans and transitioning to a man I find that statement really offensive. Disordered thinking is NOT a term I have heard used before, and hope never to again.

Obviously I am new to all the terminology but regardless of what Kellie was or is, the fact that a high profile figure has caused a lot of media attention has actually been helping him feel "normal" regardless of what you lot think, I am appalled at the attitudes on this thread.

Oh and one thing that he (my DS) has taught me is his sexual identity is nothing to do with his gender identity, took me a while to get that one but I do.

I don't think anyone is saying kellie's sexual identity necessarily has to do with gender identity. It's the fact that Kellie is openly homophobic, yet, by her reasoning, either she has been living as a lesbian in a man's body, or she has been attracted to men while living as a man. Obviously, all sorts of people can be incredibly bigoted whilst also being victims, and also being members of the group they're bigoted against. But I don't think the second two things should give them a free rein to be as bigoted as they choose - do you?

Floundering - what is the difference in gender and sexual identity as you and he see it?

I worry very much about young people who identify very strongly with things that are stereotypically seen as for the other sex being told this is because they have the wrong brain and their body must change to match.

When I was young I wanted to be a boy very much because I thought it looked far more fun than all the limitations I had as a girl, but it was a phase that passed.

I would really love to hear more about what trans experiences are that are different to normal passing gender dissatisfaction amongst young people recognising gender stereotypes and their limitations.

And also I think LRDs point that we shouldn't feel we have to congratulate people who we don't agree with just because they're doing something hard in public. Kellie is homophobic, and the LGB community shouldn't have to celebrate her just because they hold some things in common with the Trans community.

Differences between gender identity and sexual orientation:

Gender identity is the gender you identify as regardless of the gender assigned to you at birth based on your genitalia. For most people these are the same.

Your sexual orientation is who you are attracted to sexually. This doesn't change if you come out as trans, although the labels used to describe it might.

eg a straight man, would become a lesbian transwoman because her attraction to women has not changed, although her gender identity has.

Surely it is not gender assigned at birth but biological sex?

What is gender after all, does it even exist or is it an artificial construct? What is a female gender and what is a male gender?

What about people who don't have a gender identity, floundering?

I'm saying with Kellie, obviously, whoever she's attracted to hasn't changed (why would it?). And I don't know if that's men or women or both, because I don't know her. But, she's made really horrible homophobic comments, and even if that is partly because she struggled living as a man and being attracted to men (or feeling she was female inside and knowing she'd be a lesbian if she transitioned), it's not ok.

Biological sex isn't assigned at birth. Or I can't see how it could be.

For most people these are the same

What are you basing this on?

You're right LRD poor choice of phrase! Nothing is assigned at birth the fact of sex is just stated. Or earlier at a scan but I'm sure you know what I mean.

Biological sex isn't 'assigned' ever. It just is.

If you have XX chromosomes you are a female and if XY you're male. There is a small amount of drift within this where mistakes of recognition occur.

And do you know personally, for sure, that she has made these comments LDR ?? Where you there??

Of course it's not Ok to be homophobic, but none of us know what she had to do to survive when in denial/sorting out in her own head what was going on, doesn't mean it is right but it is understandable.

Also we all know how the media seize on comments from long ago and twist things to make great soundbites it might not be true.

Anyway whatever the reality of her personality, she is who she is and I think very brave to come out in such a patriarchal profession.

Every time a high profile case like this is discussed it helps a child like mine to come forward and discuss their issues and feel they are not alone, that there is a way forward.

I hope to go none of you ever have young relatives who have to go through what we are going through - your attitudes are appalling & contrast starkly with the wonderful support I have received on another MN thread .

I am going to leave now & hide this thread before I get rude, I have always prided myself on being a feminist but I'll hand my card in if it means being as judgmental as you lot.

What do you mean, was I there? Of course I wasn't. But they're a matter of public record. Have you read them? Here: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28730751

Honestly, they are truly appalling. I am shocked anyone can think it's ok to support homophobia.

I am very sorry you're upset. And I do wish your DD best of luck.

But I do not understand why you think promoting homophobia is acceptable.

"I could have done my job in boxing as a female."
I would love to know what she meant by this sentence.

I hope she is at peace now;I hate to hear of people who aren't. I do also hope that if she continues in the boxing world, she is not included in stats that show how diverse that world is becoming (or otherwise).

Not particularly interested in her sexuality, beyond hoping that she didn't use anyone as part of her denial mechanism over the years.

I am really confused.

I have read the first few posts and don't understand most of it.

[thick person emoticon]

I have always prided myself on being a feminist but I'll hand my card in if it means being as judgmental as you lot

We're not necessarily judgmental (although I do unashamedly judge transactivists who threaten women with any kind of violence), we have just thought about things in a different way from you.

I'm sorry your leaving the thread floundering I hope you will keep reading up on transgenderism including those who choose to reverse the process - which will help you with supporting your child no matter what happens next.

I don't believe in male and female brains or gender identity in that sense, unfortunately I think that is too tidy a picture of anyone's real mental state, I believe that we are all fluid wrt our gender identity each identifying with parts that are stereotypically seen as either male or female and that trying to only live up to the stereotypes of one gender is very difficult and potentially emotionally and mentally damaging.

Biological sex can be assigned at birth if a person is born intersex (their genitals are neither a penis nor vagina) - intersex babies are frequently given "corrective" surgery to make them either "male" or "female". Gender identity is then also assigned at birth based on said genitals - i.e., a baby is raised as either a boy or a girl based on whether they have a penis or vagina.

vicmackie I assume she based it on the fact that the transgender community is a minority group and the vast majority of people identify as cisgender (they identify as the gender they were assigned at birth) - and in response to an earlier comment, everyone has a gender identity.

bif - yes, it's horrible.

Thankfully, medics are moving back on that. It's mutilation.

And no, everyone doesn't have a gender identity.

the vast majority of people identify as cisgender

No they don't. The vast majority doesn't even know what "cis" means.
I like many others do not identify with my "gender." I do not identify with the female gender role. Not the traditional Western one, at least.

Cisgender implies that people who choose not to be trans are happy with their gender 'role' though doesn't it?

As I said up there I would rather have been a boy when I was young. I am okay with being female now. Not happy with. But I accept it.

And I will argue to the moon and back with anyone that suggests everyone who's not trans is cisgendered or has gender privilege.

the vast majority of people identify as cisgender (they identify as the gender they were assigned at birth)

I don't agree with this. I have never felt "like a woman" and I've never met anyone who can tell me what it means. I know what being treated as a woman means but I have no idea what feeling "like a woman" means.

Yes, they do. Everyone has a gender identity, it's just that for the majority of people theirs has always been consistent - for instance, I was born with a vagina, raised as a female and have always identified as female. I imagine the same is true of most women in this group (although I wouldn't want to make assumptions). To put it in its simplest terms, if you were mistaken for a man by someone, you would automatically correct them and tell them you were a woman, yes? Because your gender identity is female.
Gender identity is not exclusive to trans individuals, it's just theirs happen to be different from the gender they were assigned at birth and subsequently raised as.