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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Paternity tests in France banned (more or less)

74 replies

Annie11111 · 06/08/2014 12:36

'' Any paternity testing without a court order is banned, due to the official desire to "preserve the peace" within French families, with the French government citing psychologists who state that fatherhood is determined by coexistence rather than biology. French men often circumvent these laws by sending samples of DNA to foreign laboratories, but risk prosecution if caught. The maximum penalty for carrying out secret paternity testing is one year in prison and a €15,000 fine ''

What's your opinion on this? I think it's very disturbing and can't comprehend how it can happen in a 2014 EU country . I also don't see how it's a feminist issue like many are implying.

OP posts:
ABlandAndDeadlyCourtesy · 07/08/2014 14:31

(saves anyone from watching the youtube, where the prosecutor is referred to as a son of a bitch; nice)

So at the point he challenged the paternity, he wasn't liable for any further payments.

Not saying that it was a good situation, just bringing a little more rationality to the description of it.

SevenZarkSeven · 07/08/2014 15:47

cuckold child?

wtaf? ?!!??

GilbertBlytheWouldGetIt · 07/08/2014 18:18

OH do bore off with the mansplaining.

Why do all the MRAs and bridge dwellers think a convincing username formula = womans name + random set of numbers?

LRDtheFeministDragon · 07/08/2014 18:20

Not that it's relevant, but would Gilbert Blythe get it? I always suspect not, TBH.

GilbertBlytheWouldGetIt · 07/08/2014 19:02

I think he would

ABlandAndDeadlyCourtesy · 07/08/2014 19:13

Am I the only one mentally humming, "You're all alone, more or less," every time I see the thread title?

AskBasil · 07/08/2014 20:40

Oh Gilbert now they know we've discovered their formula...

Grin
DadWasHere · 08/08/2014 02:09

DWS, exactly. Men can now be held accountable. If this is a feminist issue then it's a positive thing for feminism.

Oh, this is going to be a massive one, I feel it in my bones.

You are not helping annie, you are just not getting it. I have read your other threads. Feminism is not nearly as much the enemy of men as you appear to think it is. Certainly some within its umbrella just plain hate men but feminism itself is diverse, and just as not all priests are paedophiles its more like a religion that carries both the burdens and triumphs of those who act in its name. There was a time in feminism where no man could be part of the solution because every man was seen as part of the problem, but feminism has moved on past the second wave even though many are still not happy with the idea of men being within it unless they only back up the dialogue of women.

But its basis is generally sound thinking, which is why my daughters are essentially feminist even though they dont know they are. They do not proceed from social ignorance or clouded gendered thinking. Do you get what that means? For example it means they understand that breast cancer research is overfunded compared to prostate cancer research (which is an MRA gripe) but they understand its not particularly women driving that bus even though they are advantaged by it, mostly its the manospere- not nearly as tough as they think they are Vs the society that would have them act that tough, men who just plain love tits more than acknowledging their own mortality. Many of the issues MRA raises really need men to butt heads with one another, not female feminists.

But she's still a lying , deceiving, awful human being.

So what? Is this a personal gripe that is close to home? Pull away to the big picture. If every person who ever stole something were suddenly revealed it would break trust up and down the line of the entire human race a dozen times over. If it was to the level of a prosecutable offence it would tie up courts for centuries, even if they worked cases 24-7 365 days. Thats just theft, gender would be the last thing on peoples minds. Human beings are not the magnificent moral creatures they pretend to be. The other poster who waxes lyrical about not trusting someone because they doubt their 100% honesty, they may as well book a passage on the next rocket leaving earth because 100% honesty is not in the DNA of humans (probably not in any biological DNA at all, more like an evolutionary dead end behaviour).

So paternity testing was once hailed by feminism before the penny dropped it was a two edged sword and now its the noiseless fart in the elevator. Meh. Move on, there are a metric ton of things people would prefer exist only when activated on their terms. If you want to know my attitude to paternity testing, I personally would like to see it done universally, as a matter of course like an ultrasound, but for me that has less to do with the rights of men or women and more to do with the rights of the child.

On the whole you need to re-examine your assumptions about feminism, 'annie'.

rosabud · 08/08/2014 20:22

Congratulations on the job Capt - I have just returned from a few days up nerth (well further nerth than I usually go - certainly well past London) and it was very lovely Smile

ABlandAndDeadlyCourtesy · 08/08/2014 20:30

"So paternity testing was once hailed by feminism before the penny dropped it was a two edged sword and now its the noiseless fart in the elevator."

I'm not sure either of those positions is true, TBH. I certainly would want a source other than "Assertion of Annie (TM)" before I believed it.

Dervel · 09/08/2014 11:53

Correct me if I'm wrong but if a father has any doubts about paternity, you can just get a court ordered one in France? Why is that not good enough?

The main area false paternity has me concerned, is in regards to medical ethics. Please note I do not have a committed opinion on this owing to the complexity of the issue, but sometimes when a health issue comes up and medical health professionals become aware of false paternity who has the "right" to be informed? It gets incredibly muddied very quickly.

Whilst I think the deception is a very unpleasant thing and I can understand the vitriol it has attracted, I don't think the landscape is taken into account as it were. Usually a false paternity that arises is also news to the mother (although obviously not entirely unexpected). There was usually a moment of indiscretion, paternity is not clear and heads get stuck in sand with a hope it will all work out for the best.

Also consider when faced with a child that may not be their partners there is an inherent risk if one comes clean the relationship is destroyed but the child turns out to be their husbands/ boyfriends after all. Personally it's a situation that has no right answers that I can see, and sometimes good people do bad things.

ABlandAndDeadlyCourtesy · 09/08/2014 13:03

"Correct me if I'm wrong but if a father has any doubts about paternity, you can just get a court ordered one in France? Why is that not good enough?"

Agree!

It seems sensible that if paternity tests might result ins change of official documentation, like birth certificates, and state mandated responsibility, like child support, that the test is officially sanctioned.

DadWasHere · 10/08/2014 00:57

Correct me if I'm wrong but if a father has any doubts about paternity, you can just get a court ordered one in France? Why is that not good enough?

Because, unlike Germany, a court granting one requires the explicit consent of the mother before doing so?

AskBasil · 10/08/2014 07:17

What's wrong with getting consent of the mother?

AskBasil · 10/08/2014 07:21

I love the way that Dervel has a grown up analysis of people's motivations and blundering, in stark contrast to the "she's just a terrible person - burn the witch" analysis of whichever poster it was who presented a much more hostile, condemning view of the behaviour.

I bet the people who condemn women in this position so unambiguously, bend over backwards to find a charitable, nuanced explanation for men behaving badly.

Sherborne · 10/08/2014 07:34

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ApocalypseThen · 10/08/2014 08:35

I bet the people who condemn women in this position so unambiguously, bend over backwards to find a charitable, nuanced explanation for men behaving badly.

That's just men doing what comes naturally vs women depriving men of their entitlements. Quite different.

Dervel · 10/08/2014 08:54

DadWasHere there has surely some redress for potentially duped men to get at the truth?

AskBasil I don't think there is anything wrong with requiring maternal consent, but there has got to be some mechanism for it. Same way as if a man is contesting paternity he should be required to give a DNA sample to establish the truth.

As to the wider issue I don't condone any deception from any quarter, but I do think we as a society could be more forgiving and less judgemental.

ABlandAndDeadlyCourtesy · 10/08/2014 10:34

www.hta.gov.uk/licensingandinspections/sectorspecificinformation/dna/consentandtheuseofdnafaqs.cfm

www.hta.gov.uk/licensingandinspections/sectorspecificinformation/dna/dnaconsentflowcharts.cfm#b

It looks like the requirement for consent is not that different here, although the HTA doesn't adjudicate any court mandated test in the uk.

The difference is that someone with PR needs to consent, so if the man has PR, he could; if he doesn't, he couldn't. The irony, I suppose, is that if the test shows non-paternity, the consequence is probably removal of the PR that was the basis for the test in the first instance!

DadWasHere · 10/08/2014 13:10

DadWasHere there has surely some redress for potentially duped men to get at the truth?

Depends on the country you are in. In some countries a 'father' can request a paternity test but will be refused by the courts on the basis that disestablishing paternity would have a harmful effect on the child, especially where the relationship between the 'father' and child has already existed for several years.

What's wrong with getting consent of the mother?

Nothing, if she gives it. Nothing if it is not required.

If it is required but she does not give it because she knows the results will show him not to be the father, there are tons wrong with it. Even if the man were to die in a car crash can you ever imagine the mum sitting her child down and saying 'the man you knew as your dad did not father you, even though he thought he did'. Things like that are not spoken of even on a death bed.

ApocalypseThen · 10/08/2014 13:20

Well it seems to me that if the man is claiming or trying to prove he's not the father, of course the consent of the person who accepts that they are the parent is necessary.

ABlandAndDeadlyCourtesy · 10/08/2014 13:33

It seems this law dates from 1994. Dad, there was 1,500 court ordered tests last year, would be interesting to know the background to those.

It's also an interesting philosophical point, though not one that's specifically feminist: regardless of biology, is there a point at which a man who has acted as a child's father is irrevocably wedded to fatherly responsibility for that child? UK law, I believe, provides for the woman who gave birth to a child to be its mother even in host surrogacy, unless she surrenders that right. So genetics aren't everything, even here.

This also provides some protection to a man who has acted as a father to a child and wants to continue to do so, if on a break up, the mother tells him the child is not biologically his.

AskBasil · 10/08/2014 19:56

My point is that it is not desirable to seek a paternity test without the knowledge of the other parent and if someone is unreasonably withholding permission, that's exactly what the courts are for.

Dervel · 10/08/2014 20:59

DadWasHere I can't honestly think that if a father has significant doubts over paternity refusing a DNA test would allow the status quo to continue concerning the relationship the relationship to the child. If anyone knows of any publicised case I would be interested to read it.

I still think this is a scenario that is actually harmful to talk about in detached and abstract terms. We are wading into deep emotional waters. To reiterate I think the majority of cases involve a woman who doesn't 100% know one way or another, but there is a great deal of hoping and finger crossing going on.

As an extension of that I honestly don't think many women would be refusing a test, because at that stage the truth will likely come out sooner or later.

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