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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Following on from the TERF thread...

635 replies

CailinDana · 15/06/2014 21:28

Trying to get my head straight on this. Surely the whole malarkey around transwomen wanting to be recognised as women even though they have penises will eventually actually help to break down the idea of gender?

What I mean is, if a person with a penis can be labelled a woman simply because they want to be labelled in that way, surely gender becomes meaningless as it tells you nothing meaningful about a person except perhaps the clothes they like to wear?

This is a half-formed thought, feel free to develop/challenge.

OP posts:
QueenStromba · 26/06/2014 13:22

I've sure I've seen a statistic somewhere claiming that, while ~80% of children not treated with puberty blockers decide they are not transexual, almost 100% of children treated with puberty blockers go on to transition. I'm trying to find a source for that but it's difficult since 90% of the results for it in google are pro-medicalisation of gender non-conforming children.

Beachcomber · 26/06/2014 13:23

Agreed, the pathologising of lesbianism is terrifying.

I'm surprised a few more liberals haven't woken up to that yet. I guess they are too busy fawning over male to trans people for being on the telly bullying women about not dressing sexay enough and writing misogynistic punk records.

LurcioAgain · 26/06/2014 13:35

I've been reading this with interest and thinking back to the 70s when some adult women were political lesbians, I wonder if I was a "political" gender-non-conforming child. I dressed and acted (and passed) as a boy successfully for a couple of years when I was 8 or 9, not because I thought I was a boy, but because boys seemed to have the monopoly on the interesting stuff (cricket instead of rounders, football instead of netball, climbing trees, etc). I wanted to be George from the Famous Five. (In effect I saw that George was more interesting than Anne, but lacked the intellectual maturity to ask why Enid Blyton makes her more typical girl characters so bloody wet, rather than taking them at face value and assuming "girly" stuff was wet).

Interestingly, it left me with great sympathy for individual trans people, because I think I certainly conceptualised the experience as there being three things at play - sex (my genitals), gender (how society expected girls or boys to behave) and a third, amorphous thing in my head. In my case, it told me "you may want to pretend to be a boy because they get the cool stuff and you don't, but you don't want to be a boy." So to me it's always made sense that someone else might have that internal voice but telling them "and furthermore, you are or were meant to be a boy." So far, so liberal.

But I've really been rethinking this, due to a combination of this thread and its predecessor (especially the stuff on the cotton ceiling), plus the fact that I (like many women) have been radicalised by motherhood and come to a recognition that biology is the material reality against which misogyny and patriarchal power structures are acted out, and no amount of liberal, "Rawlesian initial position" thought experiments are going to make that material reality go away. So I'm left wondering what would have happened to a child like me if I was born now - would the school be calling my parents in to have chats about my gender identity and the possibility of puberty blockers? It makes my blood run cold.

DonkeySkin · 26/06/2014 13:48

SuperLoud, you might be interested in this analysis by a lesbian blogger of parents who 'trans' their kids.

Beach, she lists 'the hyper-liberal politically correct' parent/s as the first type of parent susceptible to diagnosing their child as trans, followed by 'the classic homophobe' parent/s and the parent/s suffering from Munchausen by Proxy.

dirtywhiteboi67.blogspot.com.au/2014/05/transgender-kids-new-frontier-in-child.html

Stromba, I don't know of any studies yet that have followed up on outcomes for children treated with puberty blockers. But it would make sense if all of them ended up transitioning. If you've been told you really are the opposite sex for so long, and everyone around you including your parents, doctors and teachers is so invested in reinforcing your trans identity, it would take a tremendous amount of self-knowledge and perspective to call a halt to the whole thing - and who among us had that when we were teenagers?

WhosLookingAfterCourtney · 26/06/2014 13:51

This is such a fascinating thread. Love a bit of FWR lurking.

All this stuff about puberty blockers and diagnosing children as trans is chilling.

I'd like to believe, however, that if it came down to penises in changing rooms, gender-neutral language around women's issues, 'trans' children etc, that most of British society would call bullshit on the whole thing. Most people are not right -on and will not ignore biology.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 26/06/2014 13:57

Thanks for the link. Whenever I try to find information on long-term effects of hormone treatment /puberty blockers for GID, she's the only source I come across.

EverythingCounts · 26/06/2014 13:57

On the advice about posting from MNHQ, I think they have recognised that posters here are trying to have a thoughtful discussion about a very difficult and complex topic, as opposed to just aiming to ruffle feathers as the MRA posts tend to do, so they are trying to give advice which allows that to continue while avoiding offence wherever possible. I think that's admirable of them. I also think the discussion has repeatedly referenced the fact that it doesn't aim to denigrate trans people, but rather a particular strand of trans activism.

SwerfAndTerf · 26/06/2014 14:01

I'm de-lurking because this is the issue that has revitalised my radical feminism.

Growing up I had a very 'live and let live' attitude to transgenderism, or transsexualism as it was then known. I believed it was harmless, none of anyone's business and opposed by repressed, small-minded people. Transgenderism was either far less visible or far less common back then and it was only upon leaving university that I really got to know someone who was M2T and had my moment of epiphany. He was basically a gay man who had grown-up in a horrifically homophobic family (his brothers were gay-bashers) and had obviously internalised at a young age that it was better to be straight and safe than gay and victimised. His idea of what constituted living as a woman was a sexist man's idea of womanhood and, although a generally kind and considerate person, he still retained his male socialisation, particularly when dealing with women. I realised that no-one could become a woman because they 'felt like a woman' and, indeed, that women's experiences were so hard-earned the very idea of appropriating them was insulting and damaging. However, although the sexism of transgenderism irked me, I still saw it as an issue that affected a minority of gay men, who were coping with their homosexuality in the best way they could and who had very little interest in impacting the lives of born women.

Cut forward a few years and I read that a man dressed as a woman to spy on women in some toilets that I sometimes used. As I personally know four different women who have been sexually assaulted in public toilets (two as children and two as teenagers) this disturbed me. Researching the issue online I found out that men dressing as women to access women's toilets and changing rooms for predatory purposes is far more common than I had imagined but the concerns women have about transgender access rights are routinely written off as pearl-clutching bigotry and nothing to do with material reality. I was also unnerved about the number of violent, predatory men claiming trangenderism to access women's prisons and the way this was being championed as progress. All the evidence shows that sexual predators target vulnerable women and girls in institutions and yet we're meant to be cheerleaders for this? And then came the Julie Burchill furore ... In the aftermath Roz Kaveney wrote an opinion piece in The Guardian and I made a few rational comments below the line (along the lines of critiquing gender is a fundamental tenet of feminism and transactivists aligning with MRA groups is disturbing) and, firstly, I was attacked with a level of vitriol shocking for even CIF and then all my comments were deleted, along with all other transcritical comments. This was my first experience of the sinister, Orwellian nature of transactivism and I began educating myself on the subject.

Being a radical feminist at the moment feels like being in one of those sci-fi movies where aliens colonise the earth, invading people's bodies, and you are one of the only people who can see what's happening. I still think there are homosexual M2Ts out there who just want a quiet life, but feminism has been taken over by MRAs, sexual fetishists and sexual predators, who want to silence women, claim to speak for us and enter our spaces for predatory reasons. When I hear someone like Paris Lees claiming women enjoy strangers groping them on the bus I get livid, knowing that my nieces are going to face this at some point in their lives and they will find it humiliating and threatening as I did. When I talk to other women about transactivists they still have the traditional idea of gay men with full SRS and are surprised to find out this is not the case. Interestingly when I talk to men they are far less receptive to the idea that someone can change sex and are dead against M2Ts accessing women's toilets or playing for women's sports teams etc. I have noticed, however, that when online debates are framed as 'transactivists vs feminists' men tend to side with transactivism because it is the best stick ever with which to beat us. One can only hope that transactivists carry on with the craziness and force more women to get back in touch with their radicalism, but, so far, I don't hold out much hope for this. It's far easier to be Laurie Penny than it is to be Julie Bindel in this world.

EverythingCounts · 26/06/2014 14:19

Paris Lees said what? Shock Is there a link? I want to be fully aware of what she said so I can be on safe ground in calling it absolute rubbish.

GarlicJunoWho · 26/06/2014 14:20

That's interesting. I have to stay out of these discussions as I'm pretty ignorant and it would take too long to defend my opinions (which I do have) when challenged to do so.

Very anecdotally, then - I was for several years closely involved with a 'class' of transgendered and intersex women (all with medical transformations.) They are not British and the environment was very showbiz - so representative only of themselves, really. Very few said they'd had the 'wrong body' experience growing up. In general, they reported a range of interests and sexualities which were incompatible with their male sex in a machista society; they self-identify as gay. In moving towards an altered gender, and the overt self-expression this group is expected to display, they found (in the main) a way of being themselves ... at great cost, often financially & medically, and always socially.

I don't know whether it's unusual that this group's non-showbiz friends seemed to feature a high proportion of feminist-y women. Perhaps there is a bond in being aware of performing femininity? Dunno. But I think it is sad that the majority of those people would've been happy enough with a life in drag, choosing transformation mainly in order to 'fit' an existing cultural label.

As I said, I've not done any form of academic study with this group and would be unqualified to do so. I'm just wondering whether they are an example of the "desexing" mentioned above.

SwerfAndTerf · 26/06/2014 14:34

I'm finding it hard to find the exact Paris Lees quotation, but here is an infuriating article to be getting on with -

www.vice.com/en_uk/read/enjoying-catcalls-paris-lees-column

DonkeySkin · 26/06/2014 14:36

I have noticed, however, that when online debates are framed as 'transactivists vs feminists' men tend to side with transactivism because it is the best stick ever with which to beat us. One can only hope that transactivists carry on with the craziness and force more women to get back in touch with their radicalism, but, so far, I don't hold out much hope for this. It's far easier to be Laurie Penny than it is to be Julie Bindel in this world.

Agree with all of this, sadly, Swerf. Especially the bit about it giving men a stick to beat feminists with. I have noticed liberal-left men particularly enjoy having an excuse to call feminists hateful bigots who should be silenced.

In fact the only men calling bullshit on the trans agenda that I've seen have been right-wing libertarian men like Brendan O'Neill of Spiked. IMO, this is because right-wing men don't need to pretend to be feminists - they have plenty of other 'sticks' with which to beat us and can say whatever anti-feminist shit they like without being ostracised by the right. But for left-wing men, who often have to grit their teeth while women talk about rape and sexism, this is a real gift. Imagine: women are bigots for saying gender is an oppressive social construct! Women are bigots for pointing to men as the instigators and beneficiaries of gender! Women are bigots when they talk about the sex-based origins of women's oppression! Women are bigots for organising politically without males!

DonkeySkin · 26/06/2014 14:49

So I'm left wondering what would have happened to a child like me if I was born now - would the school be calling my parents in to have chats about my gender identity and the possibility of puberty blockers?

Very possibly, Lurcio. I read in a Melbourne paper that exactly this happened to a girl who refused to wear dresses and liked 'rough-and-tumble' games and playing with toy trucks. The principal actually called her parents to suggest their daughter might be trans. She was only six Sad

When Ruby was six, her principal called me and said he believed Ruby's boyishness was more than just her being a tomboy. He suggested I research gender-identity issues and gender dysphoria.

www.dailylife.com.au/life-and-love/parenting-and-families/my-eightyearold-daughter-just-wants-to-be-a-boy-20140308-34eth.html

Beachcomber · 26/06/2014 15:00

In brief here are some of the things about all the "great many transsexual celebrities, actors and activists have exploded into the public sphere" that Laurie Penny waxes lyrical on.

Janet Mock - refers to women as 'fish' and wanted to call her book 'Fish Food' before deciding on the orwellian 'Redefining Realness'. 'Fish' is a misogynistic reference to women's genitals and and the fact that according to some gay men and transwomen, our vulvas and vaginas stink of fish. Despite numerous requests from women's groups to stop referring to women as 'fish', Mock continues to do so. Mock is also pro puberty blockers for minors and describes sex industry grooming of transsexual minors as 'sisterhood'.

Laura Jane Grace - writes misogynistic punk records with references to "bitches" "pussy" "filling pussy with cum" and "faggots". He is on record as saying that he will always be a 'dad' to his daughter (but the rest of us are expected to refer to him as a woman). He was arrested for battery when still living as Tom Gable.

Fallon Fox - snuck into the WMMA without telling the truth that he was transgender and had lived as a man until his early 30s.

Lana Wachowski - BDSMer and fetishist. Won Oscars for The Matrix as Larry Wachowski of the "Wachowski Brothers" (not as Lana). Him and his brother also made 'Bound' a violent film with sexay lesbains in it.

Chelsea Manning - AKA Bradley Manning. Controversial figure who dumped thousands of files of classified information about the US army on wikileaks. Some say hero some say traitor. Certainly Manning is unstable. Manning was Bradley not Chelsea when he dumped the files.

Laverne Cox - famous for bullying women into dressing sexy, walking sexy, buying sexy underwear, etc on reality show TRANSform. Also known for playing a stereotype of a transwoman in a TV show criticized for racist stereotypes. (On the show in one famous episode Cox's character explains to the wimmenz what the various parts of their genitals are cos they don't know that they don't pee out of their vaginas). She even shows them a picture. (See top)

And what about the menz Laurie Penny? Where are the celebrity transmen in your list?

Following on from the TERF thread...
SwerfAndTerf · 26/06/2014 15:04

Don't forget Bradley Manning punched a female army officer and threatened his mother (or maybe step-mother?) with a knife. A great candidate for sharing a cell with a woman.

SwerfAndTerf · 26/06/2014 15:06

I, and my then boyfriend, walked out of Bound after 15 minutes because it was so cringeworthy. I'm glad to hear it didn't get any better.

DisgruntledAardvark · 26/06/2014 15:10

In a way I feel sorry for Laurie Penny. She has set herself up as the antithesis to all those mean nasty radfems, throwing countless women under the bus in the process, yet no matter what she writes, she still gets some pretty vile abuse from some trans activists on twitter. Yet she still writes as if there are radfems lurking around every corner waiting to drop copies of The Female Eunuch on her head.

TunipTheUnconquerable · 26/06/2014 15:14

Laurie Penny gets abuse from trans activists? Shock

DonkeySkin · 26/06/2014 15:21

This is a bit OT now but I just wanted to respond to two important comments upthread.

I think it would be far simpler if the feminist definition of gender went back to being called sex role

almond, I agree completely. I'm reading Gender Hurts by Sheila Jeffreys right now and she says the same thing. 'Sex role' is so much clearer and points directly to the harm. Most people basically think gender and sex are interchangeable (or, at least, they don't have a clear understanding of the differences between them). It makes it very difficult to discuss these issues with any clarity when everyone is reading a different meaning into 'gender'.

And it allows trans activists to get away with the sophistry they currently employ WRT to what exactly 'gender identity' means. They say it isn't necessarily about dysphoria with one's sexed body (the old definition of transsexualism), but they also deny it is about sex-role stereotypes. I've asked a few online, well, WHAT is it, then? And they can never answer with anything except a circular definition ('gender identity is about one's deeply held sense of gender').

Beach, I'm also grateful to Mumsnet for allowing women to discuss the ramifications of trans politics, when so many 'feminist' spaces impose total censorship around this issue.

GarlicJunoWho · 26/06/2014 15:34

I've just read Donkey's link about the child Ruby Shock The only reported behaviour I found OTT was about playing her face when told to sleep in the girls' tent. But she's a child - she may just have been cross about having her self-construct challenged, in exactly the same way as a Fox refusing to sleep with Squirrels (or any number of other things that matter to a child.) All the rest is about her sensibly observing that boys get to run around more than girls, and choosing not to be forced into girlishness - as you did, Lurcio.

If the feminist definition of gender went back to being called sex role, would that then permit kids - and adults - to play around with them? If people are still going to be forced into one role or another, that doesn't help much, does it Confused

I never thought I'd be nostalgic for the 70s from a feminist standpoint!

vesuvia · 26/06/2014 15:51

QueenStromba wrote - "while ~80% of children not treated with puberty blockers decide they are not transexual, almost 100% of children treated with puberty blockers go on to transition."

Puberty blockers are touted as helpful in buying time for a child to decide if they want to move to the next stage of transition. I know that puberty blockers could be very helpful to a child who is absolutely certain that they want to transition, but what about the children who are not so sure?

Many transactivists and doctors insist that giving puberty blockers to children is a wonderful, medically safe, scientifically unbiased way to delay the onset of puberty, and to not do so is tantamount to child abuse. This practice is sold to society as an effective way to help make the person's transition easier and more convincing. Puberty blockers, however, do introduce bias into the transition process. Children who are already gender non-conforming are given these drugs, which can have the effect of making them even more at odds with their original gender. Yet the children are then expected to make an apparently unbiased decision about staying with or leaving their original gender. Suppressing puberty may help eventual transition but it may also hinder the choice to not transition. I think puberty blockers contribute to making it too difficult for some gender non-conforming children to avoid a seemingly inevitable transition.

I think there is a considerable risk that puberty blockers can skew a child's development towards an inevitable full transition, even when the child's thoughts and feeling remain uncertain. If a child does actually stop puberty blockers and stay with their original gender, their late puberty will become yet another source of trauma for these children.

I don't know of any solution that could help all gender non-conforming children. I do know that puberty blockers may be an answer for some children but they are not the answer for all children.

Current medical practices for trans people must be questioned (as must all other medical procedures for all non-trans medical conditions, because questioning the current situation is what enables society to deliver better care). If the current treatment options for trans people can be questioned but no better options are found following that analysis, including feminist analysis, then so be it.

almondcakes · 26/06/2014 16:04

Garlic, we may be talking at cross purposes. I am saying that the 'old' feminist view of gender should be called sex roles so that we can accurately name the problem and separate it entirely from the queer theory concept of gender. I am not suggesting sex roles are a good thing, just that we should have a clear word and definition for them, like we do for rabies or cholera.

GarlicJunoWho · 26/06/2014 16:14

Oh, right! Thanks, Almond.

Lol @ rabies & cholera as sex-role examples Wink

I didn't want to be a woman because, in my world, it meant being battered. Boy/girl roles were much less pronounced and I had brothers; perhaps today I'd have "wanted to be a boy" in a more stereotypical manner. I delayed my own puberty by having anorexia. It's frightening to think that, not only might other adults have suggested radical intervention, but my father might well have seized on it as a handle for further abuse with interesting opportunities ...

Not exactly a majority issue, but still an example of why a child might seem to be rejecting their gender identity.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 26/06/2014 16:18

The original use of 'gender' was to describe men and women's respective roles/characteristics within patriarchy, to criticise the social construction of gender, rather than to reify it.
[Q]] Ann Oakley on this here - it's a pretty good talk and she was one of the women advocating the use of the word gender originally.

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