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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Following on from the TERF thread...

635 replies

CailinDana · 15/06/2014 21:28

Trying to get my head straight on this. Surely the whole malarkey around transwomen wanting to be recognised as women even though they have penises will eventually actually help to break down the idea of gender?

What I mean is, if a person with a penis can be labelled a woman simply because they want to be labelled in that way, surely gender becomes meaningless as it tells you nothing meaningful about a person except perhaps the clothes they like to wear?

This is a half-formed thought, feel free to develop/challenge.

OP posts:
TunipTheUnconquerable · 25/06/2014 08:49

AbortionFairyGodmother, I've just read the Cisgender - cui bono? post. It's utterly brilliant. I would recommend anyone to read it.

It totally exposes the sleight of hand by which 'cis' allows transactivists to claim they are 'punching up' when they're really taking it out on another oppressed group.

scallopsrgreat · 25/06/2014 09:17

From the link posted by AbortionFairyGodmother and Tunip: "If white people—the actual perpetrators of the huge majority of offenses against Black people—used their institutional power to ensure that they were the group of “leuko-racials” that had to change the least and sacrifice the least in order to achieve equality, it would matter."

Yes yes yes. Men, it does matter.

almondcakes · 25/06/2014 10:12

Looking at Glosswitch's post, she is making a point about how the purpose of women's rights is to look at the position of women globally, and to try and do something about. So it isn't acceptable to say that gender is just wearing a floaty scarf when for other women gender is about being denied essential resources, health care etc.

I think the same should be said about transgender rights globally. If trans rights are global, then it cannot be defined solely on the basis of trans definitions in a couple of countries (US, UK etc) as a fluid spectrum that is self defined from internal identity that is independent of sexual orientation and biological sex, because that isn't how non binary genders work globally.

There isn't any society with non binary genders, as far as I can see, that doesn't also make a distinction based on biological sex. Some non binary genders are chosen by the individual, with others being given by society based on birth order or perceived beauty during childhood. Some genders are given exclusively to subsets of males or females within a binary. Some are given based on biological sex and sexual orientation together. Some are given based on whether or not you have been pregnant and breastfed but no longer are. Some are a religious role. Some are based on being expected to do child rearing tasks. So in our own society the nearest conceptual categories we have for transgender people in other cultures are not trans people as understood by trans activism in the UK /US, but effeminate gay man, empty nester, maiden Aunt, rent boy etc.

I don't know how trans rights should be dealt with globally, but the focus must be on those in non binary gender roles globally. The pretence that non binary gender is an innate identity with no basis in biological sex or sexual orientation, and that it is a liberating force that breaks down an oppressive binary is damaging to non binary people globally. How exactly, is a society set up into three genders, where attractive boys are selected during childhood and told they are now lifelong members of a sex class relative to all other men more liberating than a gender binary? I don't see how the number of genders changes the likelihood of a system being more or less coercive and oppressive. The job of trans activism should be to represent trans people globally; I can't tell them how to do that.

If people in the UK want to take on identities like gender queer etc, that is entirely their business. Claiming that this is an act that will liberate the whole of society from gender is my business as well. Denying that such identities replace rather than exist alongside sex roles is definitely my business.

I can see that feminism is, in some instances, solely about female bodied people. I can also see in left wing terms that while women are placed in the reproductive class, there are some societies where third gender people are also placed in the reproductive class - assigned to do much essential care of children, to be sexually subservient to male desire, to clean, deal with sanitation etc on the basis of sexual orientation, innate aspects of physical appearance etc. In that sense, I would then view those people as politically the subject of feminism, because I'm not a radical feminist, I'm just a generally left wing feminist.

So I would include any third gender groups globally who are entirely within the reproductive class within my personal perspective on feminism and who feminism should be about, because feminism to me is about the reproductive class. I do not see that any trans groups collectively in the UK are part of the reproductive class. I also don't expect radical feminists to have the same view, because they have a different perspective and that is fine.

DonkeySkin · 25/06/2014 12:52

Men may live as women and women may live as men but when a gender critical feminists calls a man a woman, the genderists pounce on this and, quite rightly, point out the inconsistencies of agreeing transwomen can be women but treating them differently for some purposes and acknowledging actual women as a biological reality on which gender enforces patriarchy.

I agree Flora. I think Ditum undermined the point of her whole piece with that bit at the end about Cox being 'a beautiful woman'.

If she thinks Cox is a woman, then all she is really doing is judging Cox for performing stereotypical femininity, which plenty of 'cis' women do. Trans activists will pounce on this part of her argument and accuse her, with some justification, of holding transwomen to different standards by demanding that they subvert gender norms, when most 'cis' people conform to them.

The feminist point is that someone does not become a woman by performing femininity, yet it is this idea that is central to trans ideology - the same idea that Ditum was taking issue with at the start of her article.

No woman can say 'transwomen are men' and remain publishable in the mainstream media, so Ditum's hedging is understandable. But you can say something like, 'I understand that sex dysphoria is a real thing,* and some people need to live socially as the opposite sex', or something like that. Saying 'I recognise transwomen as women' while also saying that gender is bullshit and being born and raised female is foundational to being a woman makes no sense. You either believe in an identity-based definition of gender or you believe it is an oppressive social construct.

*Which Ditum did say in her piece, and which attracted the wrath of one trans person in the comments, who says it is insulting to trans people to frame their experiences in terms of dysphoria! Yet trans activists refer to the debilitating effects of dysphoria to justify the need for people to transition in the first place - we are told that it is so overwhelming people will commit suicide if they can't transition; dysphoria is why children need to be given drugs that will stunt their brain and bone development and sterilise them, etc. The narrative changes all the time and has no logical consistency.

Beachcomber · 25/06/2014 13:11

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Beachcomber · 25/06/2014 19:44

Gosh.

QueenStromba · 25/06/2014 19:56

What was that for?

AskBasil · 25/06/2014 20:37

Damn. I missed a Beach post.

QueenStromba · 25/06/2014 20:50

I read the post but I can't remember which one it was. I definitely don't remember reading anything controversial (although being "transphobic" I probably wouldn't spot it). When I had all my posts deleted in a trans thread I was very surprised by which one MN had decided was the worst post.

Beachcomber · 25/06/2014 21:02

I happen to have the thread before the deletion still open on my PC. I posted just before I went to a meeting and just shut my laptop with the thread still open. I might edit it and try again. Perhaps that breaks some sort of rule though to edit and repost a deleted post.

BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure · 25/06/2014 21:07

I don't think so if you remove the offending phrase, beach.

QueenStromba · 25/06/2014 21:18

I remember the post now and I have no idea what the problem was. They deleted another couple of posts - anyone know what they were?

Beachcomber · 25/06/2014 21:29

I think it was probably more than one phrase! I might try to water it down, might not be much left though. I didn't think it was any more controversial than the thread in general but I guess it depends where the Overton Window lies in non radical feminist circles on this issue. I don't want MN to have trouble over these sorts of threads or we won't be able to have them anymore...

Also big thanks to DonkeySkin for the link to the Nussbaum article on Butler/Gender Trouble. Hadn't read it before - says exactly what I think. Although I have only fallen asleep to read Gender Trouble, it put me off wading through any other books by Butler. It's weird how you often see her described as a radical feminist when she isn't really at all. She seems to be enamored with gender, certainly she has made a living pontificating about it (whilst never critiquing it as an oppressive hierarchy). She just sucks the politics out of gender and the radicalism out of radical feminist ideas. Indeed she sucks the feminism out of them too. And disappears the gendered nature of gender... (Can you tell I didn't like the book? Grin ).

Beachcomber · 25/06/2014 21:55

I just checked my emails and I have a nice message from Rowan helpfully telling me which bits got my above post deleted and saying it is fine to repost if I leave those bits out. Rowan was also good enough to include a copy of the post itself so that I can edit it and she also said that it is fine to tell you lot all this and she included other generally good egg stuff about the importance of discussion of controversial issues. Thank you Rowan I really appreciate you taking the time to do that I shall reply to your email but wanted to say thanks here too.

Beachcomber · 26/06/2014 09:11

Okay so I'll have a go at re-posting following Rowan's advice as to which parts got me deleted. I haven't run this by HQ so it may get zapped too. For the record HQ deleted the post because it was reported so it is possible this will go too if it is reported again and I haven't edited enough controversial stuff out.

AbortionFairyGodmother, thanks for your piece on 'cis' it is really good and clearly demonstrates it to be a term which benefits men to the disadvantage of women i.e. as patriarchal. (One small thing, I'm uncomfortable with transwomen being analogized as the 'blacks' of gender, don't mean to be critical however and it is impossible really to find the perfect analogy...)

Having read the other links from Ditum and Glosswitch and having mulled things over a bit it has occurred to me that transgenderism has the potential to enter the realms of sex selection via gender . And what does this have the potential to mean in countries such as China and India where female fetuses are aborted and girl babies killed at birth? Girls and boys, men and women are not awarded the same status in male supremacist society - which is the reason why sex selection is illegal/unethical in many countries, because otherwise girls just won't be born/allowed to live in equivalent numbers to boys. And that is genocide.

Genocide is the systematic destruction of all or part of a racial, ethnic, religious or national group via the (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; or (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. (Wikipedia)

The whole Laurie Penny "awesome! picture of an XY person who takes synthetic female hormones and has silicone implants on Time magazine" article, is vacuous beyond belief. And notice how all the examples of "a great many transsexual celebrities, actors and activists have exploded into the public sphere" that Penny cites are transwomen i.e. XY. (Whodathunkit, XY persons in the public eye being talked about as though they are representative of both the male and female experience?!) I wonder if Penny can even think of a couple of successful and famous transmen who have "exploded into the public sphere".

As for the notion of transgenderism as "the next civil rights frontier". Why, why, why, is there no mention of the fact that transgenderism is dependent on synthetic hormones and cosmetic surgery? I know it isn't considered polite to mention this in liberal circles but the inconvenient truth is that transgenderism is dependent on drugs and surgery. It is also expensive. And potentially dangerous.

Which is one of the (many) reasons why I find it so utterly offensive when parallels are drawn with lesbianism and homosexuality. Gay people do not have to take drugs in order to maintain their sexual orientation, they do not need to modify their bodies and sex hormones via medical means. They do not need to have cosmetic surgery. They just are.

There's a woman who sometimes posts on trans critical blogs who talks of her sister - an ageing MtT person who cannot take hormones anymore due to damage done to their heart by these hormones. This person cannot take the synthetic hormones anymore and therefore is having to 'detransition'. In other words, they are going back to what they have always been; male. Except they are in a horrible limbo of ill health, gender dysphoria, a castrated body with silicone breast implants, a deepening voice and returning facial hair. And no-one really wants to help/knows how to help. I have also heard of older transwomen developing blood clots and having to stop synthetic hormones ending up in the same position.

Okay, we'll see, I hope I tweaked it enough. There's a whole bunch of stuff I want to say about the transwomen Penny cites who have 'exploded into the public sphere'. Will do it in another post though.

GoshAnneGorilla · 26/06/2014 12:04

MNHQ are giving you personal advice on how to present your views now?

I'm sure you'd be thrilled at them doing this to some of the male posters we get in FWR. Why not, if "discussion is so important"?

I think it's bad enough a thread denigrating a section of society is allowed to stand, but MNHQ being complicit in it is worse.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 26/06/2014 12:22

Um... I'm not sure that's what this thread is, but ::shrug::

Women are affected by legislation on behalf of transwomen. We are affected when transwomen want to come to groups intended for women. Why can't women talk about this? Why do we always have to put males first?

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 26/06/2014 12:24

'Having read the other links from Ditum and Glosswitch and having mulled things over a bit it has occurred to me that transgenderism has the potential to enter the realms of sex selection via gender . And what does this have the potential to mean in countries such as China and India where female fetuses are aborted and girl babies killed at birth? Girls and boys, men and women are not awarded the same status in male supremacist society - which is the reason why sex selection is illegal/unethical in many countries, because otherwise girls just won't be born/allowed to live in equivalent numbers to boys. And that is genocide.'

Also, as a lesbian, I feel that pressure on children to 'transgender' will result in subfertility for young girls who would otherwise grow up to be lesbian - it's eugenics, essentially.

almondcakes · 26/06/2014 12:27

Gag, your post was one of the most amusing 'whataboutthemenz' I have seen.

Beachcomber · 26/06/2014 12:47

That's an odd post GoshAnne.

Look, I thought it was very decent of MNHQ to not just zap a longish genuine post, that obviously had a bit of thought put into it, for the sake of a few lines in the post (none of which contained a personal attack or offensive language/slurs/etc). I have been on MN for about 8 years now, I'm not a troll and I post a fair bit on Women's Issues - I don't think your comparison with 'some of the male posters we get in FWR' (by which I imagine you mean MRA trolls) is valid. Having said that, AFAIA lots of posters (male or otherwise) are told by MNHQ to adapt their posting style/why they have been deleted. I'm not the first and won't be the last.

I really appreciated how Rowan dealt with this and I wanted to say so. My aim was not to leave Rowan, or HQ in general, open to criticism about how they deal with individual posters or accusations of being 'complicit' in 'denigrating a section of society'. I think I also wanted to show appreciation that HQ understand that the issues discussed on this thread are extremely controversial, but that they do not wish to shut down (genuine) discussion of an important subject just because we don't all agree.

You are allowed to post your opinion that this thread is about 'denigrating a section of society'. I am allowed to post in a critical manner of the practices and sex politics of transgenderism.

There are fewer and fewer (non private blog type) spaces where women are allowed to speak openly about the ramifications of transgenderism for our sex. I'm pretty proud of MN for being one of them.

ediblewoman · 26/06/2014 12:51

Where is anyone being denigrating? Exam

ediblewoman · 26/06/2014 12:51

Oops, examples please

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 26/06/2014 12:54

Lots of women who have anything critical to say about transgenderism are compared to men- I see it pretty often.

It's maybe the same sort of mind-set that encourages little girls who play with cars and want short hair to think they're actually boys.

DonkeySkin · 26/06/2014 13:04

Also, as a lesbian, I feel that pressure on children to 'transgender' will result in subfertility for young girls who would otherwise grow up to be lesbian - it's eugenics, essentially.

This is a very important point. Since sex-role non-conformity in childhood is a strong predictor of homosexuality, the pathologising of such children and the subsequent 'treatment' of them with drugs that stunt their bone and brain development and render them infertile should be a major concern for gay men and lesbians alike.

Green’s prospective study of gender-variant boys (1987) followed into adolescence and young adulthood found that 75% of those who could be reassessed had developed a gay or bisexual orientation, and only one was primarily transsexual. Subsequent studies of girls and boys have continued to find that the majority of gender-variant children grow up to have a homosexual or bisexual orientation rather than identify as transsexual (Drummond et al., 2008; Wallien & Cohen-Kettenis, 2008).

Gender Variance: An Ongoing Challenge to Medico-Psychiatric Nosology by Rosario, Vernon A. (2011) Journal of Gay & Lesbian Mental Health, 15: 1, 1-7.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 26/06/2014 13:10

My mum would have fought a diagnosis of GID just like she fought my diagnosis of deafness, but I know some parents would be only too glad to have a good wee boy instead of a tiny baby dyke.
It's uncomfy for people to see children who appear extremely likely to grow up to be homosexual because we tend to identify it wholly with sexual behaviour, which is in the adult realm or whatever. There has to be a better way of acknowledging those traits than to assign someone the opposite 'gender' and pathologise them.

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