Lesbophobia

[AskBasil]

This subject came up on another thread but I didn't want to de-rail and I thought it's worth discussing.

I realised I haven't really thought very much about how distinct lesbophobia is from more generalised misogyny - I'd always sort of lumped it in together and assumed it just comes from a dislike of women actively choosing to live life which is conspicuously and happily not focused around a male. To that extent, it ties in with misogyny directed against single mothers (or single women in general).

But there's also the issue that someone who is a lesbian is visibly in charge of her own sexuality independent of a man, which is threatening to the status quo and compulsory heterosexuality - is there the idea that she might give other women ideas (there is with single mothers)?

Someone on the other thread raised the issue of other parents, employers etc., treating lesbians as if they are predatory males; again this is bizarre because I haven't actually ever come across a woman who has expressed the idea of being threatened by predatory women in the same way that we may feel threatened by predatory males. Is it because a woman who is not deemed to be a passive recipient of male sexuality, must therefore be an untrustworthy predator and is this a reflection of mad attitudes to sex as well as actual dislike of women being visibly in control of their own sexuality?

I don't really know what I'm trying to find out here, just want to discuss and learn.

Generally if people talk about a partner and don't mention pronouns, it means they are a same sex partner. It is hard to talk without using pronouns, you have to think about it to do it.

I think lesbophobia is complicated and multifaceted.

There is plain old fashioned lesbophobia which is about the non heterosexual nature of lesbianism as a sexual orientation.

The idea that two women having sex can't really be having mutually satisfying good sex without a man.

There is the hideous porn view that women being intimate and sexual is a performance for men and is only real if a man is watching/participating/getting his jollies even just by thinking about it.

There is the political fear that women might shun heteronormativity for lesbianism/women centric lives.

Plus of course a general not taking women seriously/women as defined in relation to a man/men. And no doubt many other manifestations that I'm oblivious to as a non lesbian.

They are all women hating though, in my modest opinion, and some more lesbophobic than others and some more misogynistic than others. It seems to me that they all come down to men (and women with internalized misogyny, which we all have to some degree or other) hating the fact that men just don't have a place in lesbianism. It is nothing to do with them. At all.

And I think that is the appeal to many radical feminists with a history of heterosexuality - a place where men are irrelevant.

I hope the above makes sense and isn't offensive to the lesbian women reading.

I don't personally have a problem with a woman who's a lesbian calling herself a political lesbian. To my mind (and based on the women I know who take this label) it's a way of acknowledging the way the feminist movement influenced their decision to come out as lesbian.
I think woman-only space is very hard to find outside of religious settings and it's entirely possible a woman might experience this in feminism, realise how amazing women are outside of situations where they have to compete for male attention and then develop/acknowledge lesbian orientation from that point on.
Thinking of Sheila Jeffreys as a public example, she certainly hasn't gone back to relations with males when things have been difficult. She's very vocal in fighting for lesbians. I don't think anyone has the right to say she shouldn't label her sexuality as she wishes.
Women have so many interested parties trying to tell us our sexualities aren't authentic. And sure there's a massive element of social influence but I still think if someone's telling you 'I'm queer/I'm bisexual/I'm a political lesbian/I'm asexual/I'm a leather dyke' the polite response is to acknowledge what she's said and use that label if a label is needed in conversation.
I think what is uncomfortable about political lesbianism, for lesbians, is understandable to a degree - it used to be used by women who would say they were calling themselves lesbians in solidarity with lesbians to undermine the patriarchy's way of punishing lesbians, or somesuch. But this isn't in Adrienne Rich's paper, nor the Leeds Revolutionary Feminists' one. It's a misunderstanding, I think.
For heterosexuals, it's hugely challenging because it seems to say that women can choose their sexuality. And I think that's an important message for feminism to keep pushing, to be honest. Women can choose to challenge the idea that heterosexuality is innate. Women can choose lesbian relationships. That doesn't mean all women instantly have to. It means straight women don't have to forever consider themselves trapped in heterosexual relatiohships.
I think there are a lot of political heterosexuals. Women I know from school who were lesbians who're with men now as the isolation and prejudice was too much for them. Women who've been forced by family to marry men despite their preference for women. etc.
But I don't see anyone saying 'oh they might go back to women' because the relationship you're in at the time has a great deal more import than your potential future relationships, in terms of social impact. And presumably for other reasons same as the reasons most bisexual women ending up with men etc-patriarchy works to trap women with men.
Not saying it's all awful all of the time - I respect women who say they're happy with their male partners.
It's just in line with patriarchal expectations of women.
And I think feminism should challenge those expectations.

calmet's comment about some gay men being lesbophobic is something i've noticed before. it seems to be acceptable in sitcoms for male gay characters to make derogatory remarks about lesbians (will and grace is an example i can think of - i know it's hardly an example of political correctness, but still)

I'm having a strong reaction to gay men being criticised for being lesbophobic - I don't know if it's because this is a mixed space with mostly straight people. Gay men are as likely to be misogynistic as straight men - that seems to be true. But the times I used to go to gay clubs as a teen and look for people to dance with, those people - who were welcoming and friendly and taught me to vogue etc - were gay men.
I'm finding it really interesting that I'm reacting this way - I'm quite happy to discuss it in lesbian groups and it doesn't bother me. I think it's because I'm unsure of the assumptions/beliefs behind the comments, and maybe it's pointing the finger at another group experiencing oppression? But then I come back to not wanting to deny it happens and being really worried I'm giving some men a free pass to hate on lesbians. I'm really not wanting to do that. And I don't want to seem like I'm trying to disagree with women who're pointing it out.

SLPA that's fair enough. i'm not a lesbian, so i don't presume to know what lesbians as a group experience from other groups, especially those that are subject to discrimination themselves. it was just something that i had noticed reflected in mainstream comedy

and mainstream comedy is hardly representative of real life, but it can reflect attitudes and give people 'permission' to laugh at certain things

certainly none of the gay men i know personally would behave like that, but as i say, i'm not a lesbian so could fall into the 'not my nigel' category

You're absolutely right - it does exist in comedy shows. I wonder whether the scriptwriters were straight men. Will's actor is, isn't he?(in Will and Grace)
It exists IRL too. I've seen it.
I was just trying to work through my issues with it possibly being focussed on at the expense of heterosexual men's lesbophobia. I don't think that's necessarily happened on this thread - maybe more of a worry it would be tempting to focus on it in that way. Does that make sense?

Jokes certainly do give permission for the audience to indulge their prejudices - that's very true.

yes, i do see what you mean, and breaking down men as a group into other groups which among themselves may be more or less on the receiving end of discrimination depending on how much they deviate from the male-middleclass-white-hetero-ablebodied etc

It doesn't lessen the impact of misogyny/lesbophobia on the target women at all.
In some ways I think those jokes are quite enjoyed by straight men as they can air their revulsion of women, our bodies, our fluids etc without having to act like they still don't want sexual access to us.

I personally have found gay men to be generally more misogynistic to lesbians than Het men. They may be less misogynistic to Het women than Het men are, I don't know. But not with lesbians.

Most lesbians don't care how a woman comes to lesbianism, it is all just as valid. But saying you don't have have sexual desire for another woman, that being a lesbian is not about a sexual orientation, does change the definition of lesbian. And that is where the conflict comes from.

Not all political lesbians think this, but Sheila Jeffreys does.

And as I said upthread, the definition of political lesbianism commonly used, means that some women who would be commonly recognised as lesbians, don't meet that definition. It is also used sometimes as a way of establishing a hierarchy. I have heard political lesbians talking sneeringly of lifestyle lesbians.

Lastly I have heard women who said they felt pressured into trying lesbianism, even though they knew it wasn't for them. But that is unsurprising if you establish a hierarchy where political lesbians are the most feminist.

I have also heard complaints from women about Het women grabbing their bodies, and acting affronted if they are confronted on it. Those men seem to feel that because they are not sexually attracted to women, they have a right to grab the bodies of women and ignore any sense of personal boundary.

This is an interesting article about feminism, lesbians and gay men.
www.feminist-reprise.org/docs/fryegayrights.htm

In terms of political lesbians wanting to say how their sexuality is entwined with their feminism, why noy just say they are lesbian feminists?

Because Joan Nestle is a lesbian feminist, I'd have thought.

classes.maxwell.syr.edu/wmstory/NestleFem.pdf Joan Nestle, for anyone wondering.
The term lesbian feminist, for me, is very different to 'radical lesbian feminist' which includes women who may feel they were born lesbian but also take a radical feminist approach to gender etc whereas Joan Nestle is reifying it. Which is fine. But very different to what radical lesbian feminists or revolutionary feminists say.

SLPA, I think it can be a problem that people can focus on the behaviour of a minority group - so gay men being lesbophobic rather than straight men, Asian men being sexist rather than white men, women being racist rather than men and so on. And while an individual instance of someone doing that may have value when discussing a certain point, it becomes part of a trend. So criticising gay men more frequently than straight men for sexism is a form of homophobia, but it is hard to blame that on one person making one point about gay men being sexist.

Despite all that, I think there is a value of straight women being aware of lesbophobia among gay men - it allows straight women to realise that they are getting more favourable treatment (again!) than lesbians may be getting in their friendships with gay men. I also think this is linked to femininity - in my experience, that gay men have a preference for friendships with women who meet a beauty standard, so friendships with gay men break down important aspects of gender but also reinforce them. It should also allow straight women to realise they have a responsibility to support lesbians because lesbians are sometimes lacking full support from the gay community, and both gay men and lesbians to a greater extent do often support straight women. It should also allow straight parents and family members to think about who they should look for in helping a young family member coming out as lesbian, and not making the assumption that a gay man can be almost as helpful in that as another lesbian could be. Young lesbians need lesbian role models and support, not just role models and support primarily aimed at gay men.

So those are the reasons I think it is worth straight women thinking about lesbophobia from gay men.

Yes that's why I was sort-of annoyed at my feelings around it - I'd never want to tell women they can't name misogyny or lesbophobia where they see it.
It's hard, as a member of a marginalised group, not to feel solidarity with your male counterpart.
In mixed groups, anyway.

'All the rage' by Lynne Harne covers the period in the mid-nineties when I came out as a lesbian as a teen. It explains, for me, why it was so hard to find other lesbians to talk to and why I did end up mostly talking to gay men. My best friend at school was male and gay.

On a personal note, the last time I experienced scary levels of lesbophobia, it was a woman in a pub (at breakfast time and she seemed drunk) who started on my girlfriend, then on me when I came back from the loo, and her accompanying male thought the whole thing was hilarious. I viewed him as the one benefiting from the whole incident even though it would have been her throwing the punches. Ugh.

I don't think women are born lesbians. I have seen before political lesbians making the assumption that any lesbian radical feminists who are at all critical of political lesbianism as a theory, automatically think lesbians are born that way. That is not true.

I actually agree with much of political lesbianism, but not with those who say you do not need any sexual desire towards a woman to be one.

And the insult of lesbian is still used by some Het women and men as an insult. It used to try and control women. Because obviously being a lesbian is an awful thing to be.

Incidentally, I don't think all feminists realise that if they say things like "feminists are not all fat, hairy, lesbians you know", it is an implicit excluxion of feminists who are fat, hairy lesbians.