Lesbophobia

[AskBasil]

This subject came up on another thread but I didn't want to de-rail and I thought it's worth discussing.

I realised I haven't really thought very much about how distinct lesbophobia is from more generalised misogyny - I'd always sort of lumped it in together and assumed it just comes from a dislike of women actively choosing to live life which is conspicuously and happily not focused around a male. To that extent, it ties in with misogyny directed against single mothers (or single women in general).

But there's also the issue that someone who is a lesbian is visibly in charge of her own sexuality independent of a man, which is threatening to the status quo and compulsory heterosexuality - is there the idea that she might give other women ideas (there is with single mothers)?

Someone on the other thread raised the issue of other parents, employers etc., treating lesbians as if they are predatory males; again this is bizarre because I haven't actually ever come across a woman who has expressed the idea of being threatened by predatory women in the same way that we may feel threatened by predatory males. Is it because a woman who is not deemed to be a passive recipient of male sexuality, must therefore be an untrustworthy predator and is this a reflection of mad attitudes to sex as well as actual dislike of women being visibly in control of their own sexuality?

I don't really know what I'm trying to find out here, just want to discuss and learn.

Saying that, all the research shows that lesbians share housework much more equally and are more likely to both work part time and share childcare. So they are advantages as well.

I think it is still very hard for lesbians of school age, particularly before the sixth form. It is still hard to come out.

Yep.

Sarah Ditum has a great piece on female sexuality not being 'fluid' and how that relates to patriarchy denying women control over their own sexuality. That fits with the 'lesbians aren't real' thing, although she's not coming at it from that perspective. sarahditum.com/2014/06/07/female-sexuality-is-not-fluid/

And so many parents who say they are accepting of lesbians, do not react the same when it is their daughter.

I don't know about the UK, but I know in the US there are more hate crimes against lesbians than against gay men, including murders. The common perception is the reverse.

But saying all that, I would choose to be a lesbian.

YY, cal. I am bisexual, so this isn't my debate (and I apologise if it's rude to post in it). But I came out to my parents because I wanted to, you know, have a girlfriend like a normal person. And their response was 'you are too young to know - we will be supportive when you are older'. I know so many people whose parents said the same. Not that they 'had a problem', oh no! Just that somehow, gay children shouldn't really be allowed a normal teenage period of flirting or dating, because obviously they can leave that all until they're grown up.

I think it does a lot of damage. The younger sister of one of my mates is currently going through this with her parents (she is 13) and it really makes me mad, because FFS what is going to happen that is so awful, if she does decide in two years' time that she actually prefers boys?

I know the response would be 'well she might get bullied' and that strikes me as quite victim-blamey.

CAlmet-- legal to sack women for being lesbian? Was this in UK,or elsewhere, sorry?

In the UK. Until, relatively recently. I have friends who were sacked simply for being a lesbian. There was nothing they could legally do.

Calmet - to be fair it would be an unfair dismissal, but protection against discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation was only introduced in the last couple of years.

I am sorry, but on what grounds could you sack someone for being homosexual, if homosexuality was legal?

I don not deny for a moment that illegal practice goes on whereby people terminate employment based on their prejudices, whether sexual or racial, but that isn't legal.

Great idea for a thread. Marking place as about to go out.

There are plenty of states in the US where it is legal to fire someone for being gay.

I am also baffled by someone that complains vaginas smell, but then wants to stick their member up someone's anus. Just boggling really. Maybe they don't poo?

[Hmm]

Oh weird on the emoticon front there. Well you get the drift!

No it would not be an unfair dismissal. It was legal to sack someone on the grounds of being a lesbian. Because there was no protection legally if you were sacked for being a lesbian. And women were.

Why do you think the military were able to sack soldiers who they suspected of being a lesbian?

It was only in 2007 that The Equality Act (Sexual Orientation) Regulations made discrimination against lesbians and gay men in the provision of goods and services illegal. A lot of this stuff is pretty recent.

Women's legal protection in law is a joke pretty much everywhere. Look at the frequency with which women are fired for being pregnant in the UK despite it technically being illegal to do so. I've no doubt women are fired all the time for being lesbians and that its less likely to happen to gay men.

I find it interesting that in my working career I have come across hardly any open lesbians, and stacks of gay men.

If the numbers are similar, then the reason for this can only be concern about discrimination surely?

Certainly in my industry being a gay man is not a problem, at least can't be too much, as gay men have been through all levels of management etc and come to think of it there are many more gay men at upper management than women!

Does sexism trump homophobia in some workplaces/industries?

I work in quite a "traditional" industry BTW.

D'you know that is so true LoveSardines I can only remember one openly lesbian women in all the years at work in different environments, but I've met lots of openly gay men in all of those different environments.

It's not because there are more gay men in the world is it?

There are more gay civil partnerships than lesbian ones. But I have no idea if that is because there are more gay men than lesbians, or if lesbians are just less likely to get married.

I now know 2 lesbian couples who have civil partnerships (I actually only know half of those 2 couples) and don't know any gay men who have civil partnerships. Thinking about it, I don't currently know any gay men, but know a few lesbians. I suspect there are probably around about the same number of gay men and lesbians in the country as a whole.

I work in a school, and nobody is open about being homosexual in a secondary school. I've taught a few girls who are tentatively coming out, but none of the boys ever do until after they've left school.