Lesbophobia

[AskBasil]

This subject came up on another thread but I didn't want to de-rail and I thought it's worth discussing.

I realised I haven't really thought very much about how distinct lesbophobia is from more generalised misogyny - I'd always sort of lumped it in together and assumed it just comes from a dislike of women actively choosing to live life which is conspicuously and happily not focused around a male. To that extent, it ties in with misogyny directed against single mothers (or single women in general).

But there's also the issue that someone who is a lesbian is visibly in charge of her own sexuality independent of a man, which is threatening to the status quo and compulsory heterosexuality - is there the idea that she might give other women ideas (there is with single mothers)?

Someone on the other thread raised the issue of other parents, employers etc., treating lesbians as if they are predatory males; again this is bizarre because I haven't actually ever come across a woman who has expressed the idea of being threatened by predatory women in the same way that we may feel threatened by predatory males. Is it because a woman who is not deemed to be a passive recipient of male sexuality, must therefore be an untrustworthy predator and is this a reflection of mad attitudes to sex as well as actual dislike of women being visibly in control of their own sexuality?

I don't really know what I'm trying to find out here, just want to discuss and learn.

Which gives us a clue as to what a horribly homophobic place most schools are despite years of anti bullying policies, doesn't it?

The problem is that women are not allowed to see men as the problem. It's never 'men sexualise women's daily lives and objectify them' it is 'women are sexualised and objectified'. It's not 'men prey on women, even more when they are especially vulnerable such as in changing rooms and toilets' it's 'women are preyed upon, even more when they are especially vulnerable such as in changing rooms and toilets'.

So you get 'feminist' straight women saying and believing these things, that the problem isn't male violence against women, but 'violence against women', and that anyone could do it, especially if they are sexually attracted to women. Which gives gay men a free pass they don't deserve and implicates lesbians - when lesbians are obviously actually the victims.

Admitting that men hate women and are violent to women is difficult for heterosexual and bisexual women so it's useful to deflect onto lesbian and bisexual women for the sake of a coherent(? you know what i mean) worldview.

Similar: lesbians and bisexual women being sexually attracted to women and wanting to have sex with them is 'misogyny', just because men do it in a misogynist way, therefore sexual desire for women is misogyny.

It's really frustrating.

Yes Basil schools are incredibly homophobic. I did meet an openly gay male student teacher when i was doing teaching practice. He was very camp and some of the pupils asked him if he was gay and he just said "yes, isn't it obvious?" The pupils were remarkably more tolerant than some of the staff, pupils were genuinely interested and asked questions, whereas staff told him he should be keeping his personal preferences out of the classroom.

But when "gay" is used so commonly by teenagers as an insult it's really, really hard to stamp it out, and even more difficult to actually be gay in that community.

I work in sports and there a lot of openly gay women at the sites I work at. No one bats an eye.

One of my best friends openly admits it's the straight women that give her the thrill of the chase. >

I went to an all girls school and I remember lads waiting outside the school gates at breaks and home time. The school is right near my main place of work and in the past few years it's like there has been an explosion of the gay bug and they are openly necking. Which I'm actually glad about as it will probably lower the teenage pregnancy rate around here

On a serious note - yes I do think so men are threatened.

at getting the sack for being lesbian! - assholes.

Not to say schools are not homophobic, but regarding students coming out - have had (thinking) one girl tell me she was a lesbian and two others saying they were bisexual, and about five boys saying they were gay. They were not telling me in connection with bullying, they were very matter of fact about it - wouldn't it be great if one day that was the case for everyone.

Amongst my lesbian friends, there seems to be some industries where it is easy to be out, and others it isn't. So yes lesbians working in sports, IT and with people with learning difficulties seem to be likely to be out. Lesbians working in nurseries and hairdressers, seem less likely to be out.

I've just started reading "The Lesbian Heresy" by Sheila Jeffreys and it is very very interesting.

I'm just at the beginning but I think the main theme of analysis running through the book is why it is so unacceptable for women to be lesbians currently and how that has changed over time.

So far Jeffreys separates two ways of thinking about lesbianism; that of (male perspective) sexology and that of women centric lesbian feminism. The sexology way of thinking is that lesbianism is about sex and sexual attraction and that that attraction operates within a framework that mirrors (patriarchal) notions of heterosexuality i.e. a framework of masculinity and femininity which gives us the butch/femme binary.

Lesbian feminism rejects this male centric male perspective of lesbianism and analyses lesbianism as being very much about women, women loving and feminism (with feminism considered as "women loving" which is a powerful but sadly rather lost idea).

Sexology analyses lesbianism as behaviour that deviates from the norm (heteronormativity) but that women can't help.

Lesbian feminism has a different outlook of lesbianism as being about passionate about women. This passion may manifest as sexual but it may not. It may manifest as a choice to prioritise women over men and to find closeness, companionship, political alignment and solidarity with women rather than invest in a relationship with a man that will inevitably be an exploitative one for the women. There is therefore a political element and a challenge to what Adrienne Rich calls "compulsory heterosexuality".

I haven't got very far but I think Jeffreys is going to look at the backlash against lesbian feminism and how lesbophobia is constructed as a mechanism of social control against women and how it is important that lesbianism be considered a sexual deviation from the norm that is very much about sex. Simultaneously, girls are socialized from birth to be heterosexual and to see their place as with a man (in a relationship with the macro patriarchal dynamic of domination/submission replicated at individual level - this is the cornerstone of patriarchy).

So lesbianism challenges the cornerstone if patriarchy in a way that male homosexuality does not. This being one if the reasons why lesbophobia is important to the maintaining of the status quo.

Really interesting topic. I'm a single mum and I do find I worry people (actually other mothers in couples) worry that I am after their husbands. Men seem to think I must live on benefits and desperate for a man... When they find out I am neither I am usually ignored, as they can't put me in a box. I fought my way into a conversations with 2 men yesterday about friggin' Netflix FFS! They were actually pretending they couldn't hear me as I think me trying to be technical (asking if they had switched to US version) was too much for them to bear!

I saw an interesting article the other day where a teacher was talking to her mixed class about gay men. She was trying to pin down why one particular boy had a very strong dislike of them. It turned out that on sharing a car with another male teen his age, said teen had made a pass at this boy. The teacher said something like 'Ah, I see. You didn't like the idea that someone who was as strong or stronger than you made you feel as if they could just make you have sex with them if they wanted?' the boy agreed. Teacher said 'well, that is how it feels for women 90% of the time every day when a man makes a pass'. I thought it was interesting but it is a separate issue from OP so waffling a bit!

I think the lesbian of today is an enigma for men, as they have been fed porn lesbians, or in stark contrast "butch" lesbians. They apparently need to be one or the other or the male's head will explode. I think this is where the confusion comes in. (FYI porn lesbian should also revert back to heterosexuality at some point).

Beachcomber - I really like parts of Sheila Jeffreys Lesbian Heresy, and not other parts. I think it is obvious she has never really mixed with lesbians who are not feminists. So for example the chapter about lesbian bars is I feel based on myth, rather than reality.

Political lesbianism is a very controversial subject amongst lesbians who are radical feminists. Personally I agree with encouraging women to see that there are alternative ways to live. But I think saying that sexual desire is not necessary for lesbianism, simply desexualises lesbians.

The reality is that lesbians sexuality is not taken seriously by mainstream patriarchy. Lesbians are only seen as sexual when a man gets involved, either as a viewer or a participant. Political lesbianism, misguidedly perpetruates this dynamic.

But there is a lot that is good in the Lesbian Heresy as well.

I was having a conversation online recently with a friend who was talking about people identifying as queer online (but not exclusively lesbian) and she felt she had been through it all before with the concept of political lesbians. She felt pretty angry about it because she said that while ultimately both those groups can walk away from that identity if things get socially very bad, she can't. She was saying under no circumstances could she find the male body sexually attractive, so she can only live within the context of however society decides to treat lesbians next.

She had introduced the topic and was pretty angry about it, so I didn't respond very much. But I wondered if political lesbianism is always really a choice. If someone has been involved in feminism, is it possible that this could lead them to realise what they have been told about heterosexuality is a facade, and if they really wanted the things they were led to believe would happen in relationships in books etc, they would actually have to be in a relationship with a woman, so were really a lesbian. And similarly, could it be that some women who were bisexual, find through feminism that their attitudes to male behaviour change so much that they no longer feel romantic or sexual attraction to any actual man. And if you become a lesbian through facing up to reality and finding you cannot be in a relationship with a man, is that not a sort of political lesbianism?

I have seen women become lesbians in a number of ways. Those who feel they always were, those who were married to a man for years and tehn fall in love with a woman, those exposed to feminism who begin to question heteronormativity and become attracted to women, and those who are bisexual and choose to be lesbians. Not everyone agrees, but I think they are all equally valid ways to become a lesbian.

But it is about becoming a lesbian where you have sexual attraction to some women. Political lesbianism says that you don't have to have any sexual attraction, all you have to do is centre women in your life. Ironically some lesbians don't meet this definition. There are lesbians who have a lot of internalised misogyny and still put men first, although they have girlfriends. Or lesbians who are in arranged marriages with men. Lesbianism traditionally recognises these women as lesbians, the definition of political lesbianism doesn't.

Many of those who are very against the theory of political lesbianism are radical feminists who have been lesbians for as long as they can remember. I think the fact that a lot of them are very unhappy with the theory, warrants some attention.

That's interesting calmet about Jeffreys and not mixing with lesbians who are not feminists. I agree with you that saying sexual desire is not necessary, desexualises lesbianism. I often think that we need another word for "political lesbianism" - one that differentiates it from lesbianism the sexual orientation and highlights that it is an alternative that doesn't have to political as such but simply woman centric. Political lesbianism strikes me as a misnomer.

If it had a different name, I don't know any radical feminists who would object to the theory.

Because ultimately the theory is about encouraging women to put other women first, and that is a great philosophy.

For some reason I added and extra online there by accident. the conversation was in real life in a private conversation, not online, but was about online behaviour. I know this seems a bit irrelevant, but it changes the context as it is about someone expressing an emotional response that they might not feel able to express in a public space like the Internet.

I think the term "political lesbianism" is pretty awful. I can totally see how it would piss off lesbians in sexual relationships.

I do think there is a place for the concept itself however. I live with a man at the moment and have lived with him for a long time now. If our relationship were to end I would not choose to be in a relationship with a man again, even though the heterosexual relationship I'm in at the moment is not bad. I'm definitely in the case that almondcakes describes where feminism has changed me and I will not invest time, energy and emotion in a man again. I don't mean that my current partner has put me off men, more that I love him despite him being a man and we have a long history together that means we have a comfortable caring solidarity that comes from going through many of life's ups and downs and them changing both of us.

If he were not to be around anymore I would abstain from heterosexuality. I have no idea if I would seek out a sexual relationship with a woman. I wouldn't call such a lifestyle political lesbianism because I don't like the term but I guess it would come under the concept.

Who knew, looks like I'm a political lesbian then! I've only got two male friends (one is gay) and truly believe women can do everything a man can. I also completely believe that we are sold a society where women have to turn on each other to 'survive' and I think women are generally deep down more thoughtful and caring than men. Maybe it is just the men I've met, but I don't want a relationship with one any more. I've always said I just need a wife!
I've never had a sexual relationship with a woman though, and feel that side would be strange for me, so I've always assumed I'm hetro. It's just a label now and is meaningless as I have no relationship at all!

Lioninthesun - But please don't call yourself a political lesbian.

Beachcomber - I have heard many Het women who are radical feminists or close to those views, say the same thing. Sheila Jeffreys was herself in a relationship with a man for 5 years after becoming a radical feminist. When that ended, she said she would never have another relationship with a man.

I do think questioning heteronormativity is important, and some women after becoming feminists, do become lesbians. Others enjoy livinga lone, or with a female friend.

It doesn't really roll off the tongue, don't worry!
I think i'm just invested in females rather than males. The idea of living with a woman certainly feels a lot less stressful to think about!

If he were not to be around anymore I would abstain from heterosexuality. I have no idea if I would seek out a sexual relationship with a woman. I wouldn't call such a lifestyle political lesbianism because I don't like the term but I guess it would come under the concept.

That's interesting I have been with my dh for a decade and since I was fairly young and he was my first relationship, and I feel completely comfortable with him. But that took years. And now I really don't think I could be bothered to have to deal with a man again if I had to start fresh.

I hate the sexist bullshit the regular guys come out with ...and this may seem really counter-intuitive but I actually think I distrust the so called male feminists ever more than the other ones.

I'm not sure if I would consider a relationship with a woman or if I would maybe just switch to a "sex only" situation with various men.

Did anyone see Kissing Jessica Stein? I found the ending infuriating. It's a bit like Calmet was talking about with movies and tv not really respecting lesbian relationships. But it's about two straight women who basically have a go at lesbianism.

There was a really interesting post on the ROYGBIV bit of Jezebel where writer was upset as she had been on a date with her girlfriend when a random bloke kept talking to them (the way he absolutely wouldn't had one of them been with a male) and then basically said how "cool" he was with their relationship and could he sit with them

So they were meant to be pleased that he was OK with their relationship? Despite being hassled just trying to have a night out together, and let him sit with them?

Although when the writer was lamenting being a lesbian in this world I had a 'what about the heterosexual girlz' moment.. because all I could think was some poor woman had probably dated the twat before.

lioninthtesun I see a lot of single mothers who have that problem (being see as "competition") because god forbid a single woman might actually want to be single. You must be desperate to steal one of their partners

Yes, people seem to think those of us who choose to live alone are somehow incomplete! Yet women have the best mental health and are happier when single (and men when married) which says it all. That is a separate issue than being a lesbian of course although plenty of those too might prefer to live alone.

I have known many more gay men than lesbians, just because I work in a fairly masculine business environment and all my close friends have always been male over the years. I have not heard those I know be disparaging of lesbians. Also most straight men seem to love the idea their girl friend may be interested in women as they have classic fantasies of 2 girls in the bed etc - but that is potential bi sexuality rather than lesbian women.

But the idea of men loving the idea that their girlfriends may want to have sex with a woman, is not about the women. It is about their sexual pleasure as a voyeur or participant. Lesbians don't want men anywhere near them sexually. And many bi women want sex with a female partner alone too.

lesbians working in sports, IT and with people with learning difficulties seem to be likely to be out.

I've been working in IT for about 18 years, and I haven't knowingly met a single lesbian; I did in academic libraries, and in the civil service. That's not to say there are no lesbians - there aren't that many women all together in some areas (I'm the only one in a department of about 40.) Also, most of the women I know at work - well, I know some of them are married to men, because they've mentioned it. I know others who have mentioned partners, but I don't know if they're male or female partners. In most cases, I just don't know, because I mostly want to talk to them about storage requirements for their application or whatever exciting thing it is. Doesn't make a difference who they prefer to hook up with, as long as they can tell me they need 500GB now and current projections expect that to increase by 100GB year on year. Or whatever. In any case, I suspect that it may also depend on the employer - different companies (even different offices for the same company) have different cultures, IME.

god forbid a single woman might actually want to be single

Well, yeah. Someone said to me recently, "You shouldn't be single." What was he going to do about it, as he's married? Pimp me out till there's someone he approves of? I've been single most of my life, so it does seem to be my normal state, whether he likes it or not, and I'd rather be single than in some of the crap relationships I've seen my friends in. Not that this is particularly relevant to lesbophobia, it's just on my mind at the moment, as it was recent and pissed me off.

I think it's really, really hard to be out in IT- it's a field so totally dominated by males, and some of the 'banter' that goes on
Horrifically bigoted.