Laurie Penny on Isla Vista-in case anyone missed it.

[Hakluyt]

here

Misogynist extremism. Why the fuck have I never thought about it that way.

It's true, because something is white and male we somehow turn in to a mental illness, or make excuses. But if he had been a Muslim man trying to kill Christians for not doing things his way, it most certainly would have been "islamic extremism".

I know. It was a lightbulb moment for me too.........

I doubt it, WhentheRed. If she did, she'd lose her place as the acceptable (to men) face of feminism.

I'm really tired of liberal feminists' refusal to analyse male domination as a whole system. The way they imagine they can condemn some manifestations of it (man believes he has a right to women's bodies - hence, Elliot Rogers) while defending others (men believe they have a right to women's bodies - hence, the sex industry) is so full of cognitive dissonance, I have a hard time taking anything they say seriously.

Women's degraded status and the hatred of women is built on the idea that women and girls are the sex class, who exist for men to use. Yet Penny's career as a 'feminist' is built on defending men's entitlement to women's bodies and calling women who question it prudes and 'whorephobes'. Some years ago she wrote an article defending push-up bras for seven-year-olds as an expression of agency and said women who objected to them were 'puritans'.

In this article, she's doing it again, even taking time out to defend pick-up artists! I'm so sick of this half-assed faux feminism posing as feminism. We need feminists who are prepared to challenge the roots of male domination - everything else is just a defence of patriarchy in disguise.

"There are certainly men out there who engage with the ideas of "Pickup Artistry" without absorbing the contemptuous misogyny at its core, much less pursuing it to its conclusion. One of my best relationships, in fact, was with a young man who swore by The Game as a handbook for shy boys who wanted to be able to talk to girls at parties, whilst mocking the sexism at its core."

I mean, this is a wretched bit of cognitive dissonance and apologism, and what it is doing in the middle of a piece about a murderous misogynist who came from PUA culture is anyone's guess. The Game literally tells men how to manipulate women and destroy their self-esteem so they'll sleep with them. You have to be severely, deliberately blind to the way misogyny works to imagine that men can follow its tenets 'without absorbing the contemptuous misogyny at its core'. If Laurie Penny is the best that modern feminism can do then feminism is in serious trouble.

See I thought it was her who wrote the article about realizing she had got all that wrong. But now I can't find annything about it

Donkey, I consider myself liberal not radical: I think we cab change within the current system. I don't support men's "rights" to buy sex.

RFFU - was that the Cool Girl article? I think that was someone else.

The 'women who think there is something wrong with padded bras for seven-year-old girls are puritans' (actually soecifically aimed at Mumsnetters!) article is here:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/apr/15/primark-padded-bikinis-mumsnet-sexuality

Sadly, most liberal feminists these days do support men's 'right' to buy sex and viciously attack women who challenge this. Penny has been one of the leading voices in this anti-feminist assault on any women who challenge the construction of women and girls as sexual objects, and the malestream media has rewarded her with a platform.

soecifically = specifically

most liberal feminists these days do support men's 'right' to buy sex and viciously attack women who challenge this.

WTF, that isn't feminism
I wonder if they're aware that they're siding with the bad guys - pimps etc

I don't know if that's true or not, I don't know any numbers.

I have always self defined as liberal because I don't self define as radical IYSWIM. I thought "pro prostitution" feminists self defined as "sex positive" (a term I dislike as I'm positive about sex with enthusiastic consent!)

"Sex-positive" implies that the others are anti sex. Like pro-life implies that the others are pro killing...
I really don't understand how someone can be a feminist and support the sex industry.

^What a load of bollocks

I must be doing feminism wrong, because I don't agree with anything she's said. Or she is. Or feminism is a spectrum?

Yes, of course feminism is a spectrum. I agree with Laurie Penny, and the Amnesty thing is not about supporting the right of men to purchase sex, but supporting the right of sex workers to be recognised as humans, who should be able to work in safe conditions.

But radfems won't see that, because their political theories are more important than the actual lived experience of sex workers. Meh.

The sex trade is a complex issue because as a feminist I want to throw everything possible at it to make sure it's abolished (that is probably the wrong word since it isn't "legal" but I can't think of a better one).

But on the other hand I want there to be more protection for the women who do find themselves in the position of selling sex for money.

Maybe having it only illegal to buy not sell sex would be the answer?

Sorry, I know this isn't the direction of the OP. It's just an issue I have an internal struggle with.

Interesting. People disagree with Penny on some things- so she's wrong about extremist misogyny.

Just how the patriarchy want us to behave.

And oh, look, we're talking about prostitution again.

"But radfems won't see that, because their political theories are more important than the actual lived experience of sex workers. Meh."

Actually radfems listen to the actual lived experience of exited prostituted women who are free to say what they really feel about what they went through and their theories come out of actual lived experience of women as a group, not just a small unrepresentative section. They also stay true to a basic tenet of feminism, which is that women are not there for men's use and men don't have the right to use us as convenient receptacles for their violence or their penises.

It is legal to work as a prostitute in the UK, and it is legal to employ the services of a prostitute in the UK. (NB, no-one is selling a kidney here.)

It is not legal to solicit in public (streetwalking/kerbcrawling) and it is not legal to run a brothel (it's actually controlling and profiting from the activities of prostitutes).

Where two or more totally independent sexworkers share premises, whether at the same time or on different days or at different times, each woman (and it's usually women) can be prosecuted as "pimping" the other, which is where the radfem rhetoric of "pimps" comes in.

Okay Hakluyt back to extremist misogyny.

I get the idea behind it and agree it's a way of thinking of the violence against women and trying to make sense of where it is coming from.

But calling it extremist misogyny makes me think that doesn't following that through mean that simple mysogyny is okay?

"Oh extremist mysogyny? The violence against women is terrible from these extremists. That's why women should stay home, look after the kids and the house! Keep 'em away from those extremists. Once they've found a nice guy to look after them they don't need to be around other men who could turn out to be extremists."

All mysogyny is extreme.

Many xposts there. Talking about "exited prostituted women" is radfem language which completely ignores the experiences of what you would call "happy hookers", the unicorns of rad fem.

And meh because I can't be arsed with yet another of the radfem dogwhistle threads.

Night, night.