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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Laurie Penny on Isla Vista-in case anyone missed it.

42 replies

Hakluyt · 26/05/2014 11:15

here

OP posts:
WhentheRed · 26/05/2014 23:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BriarRainbowshimmer · 27/05/2014 08:01

I really don't want to derail. But it's very dishonest to pretend that the only women who understand that prostitution is harmful to us, are radfems who are "theorizing." And it's dishonest to pretend that male pimps don't exist and that they aren't a problem.

I think Penny's article was good. However, I was too very disappointed that she hadn't made the connection between violent male entitlement to women and the sex industry.

AskBasil · 27/05/2014 08:33

I think she's invested in huge denial about this.

She'll lose her privileged "tame media feminist" status if she makes the obvious connection.

So she has to make a break between male entitlement to sex within the context of men being prepared to murder women because they haven't had what they feel entitled to and men who wouldn't go that far, but would pay to have sex with women who don't want to with them (IE commit rape which society doesn't call rape because it defines it according to rapists' values, not women's values).

That's why pro-sex industry people always focus on the women's motivations and not the men's. Because if they focused on the men, they wouldn't be able to deny the lack of logic and integrity of their position.

BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure · 27/05/2014 08:41

Isn't it more accurately "misoyginstic extremism", as a parellel with "Islamic extremism"?

Lots of the comments on this have been that "he killed more men than women". If an Islamic extremist had killed his male Muslim flatmates for consorting with Westerners and then gone onto kill non-Muslim men (or women) in order to demonstrate the might of his religion, and clearly explained that was why he had done so, would people be popping up and saying "ah, but it wasn't really about Islamic extremism because he also killed Muslims"?

KoalaFace · 27/05/2014 08:46

I'm uncomfortable with that comparison.

Misogyny = always bad.

Islam = not bad unless twisted by extremists.

AskBasil · 27/05/2014 08:49

Yes I can see the problem with the term "extremist misogyny"

It does imply that there's a version which is quite nice and reasonable really

BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure · 27/05/2014 08:51

Hmm, good point.

Islamic beliefs are not bad, misoyginstic beliefs are.

Islamic extremism has an understood meaning of "planning or enacting extremely harmful acts nominally driven by a religious belief" but there seems to be no specific phrase to group harmful acts driven by misogyny.

BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure · 27/05/2014 08:52

Misogyny is already the "extreme" version of sexism I suppose.

FloraFox · 27/05/2014 08:57

Bill I don't think anyone has ever mentioned the number of Muslims killed in 9/11 or the London bombings. There must have been some but you are correct that no-one said that meant it wasn't Islamic extremism for that reason.

I agree Basil that Laurie Penny is heavily invested in her position and I can't see her going anywhere near that issue. I expect she would brush it off as unconnected because of the choosey choice of the women. I'm not sure if I've ever seen Laurie Penny talking about the men's choices in prostitution and what drives the demand.

ReallyFuckingFedUp · 27/05/2014 18:28

RFFU - was that the Cool Girl article? I think that was someone else.

yes, that is the one but maybe I am mixing that up with Manic Pixie Dream girl aritcle, or is that not her either Confused

I have no problem with extremist misogyny as a phrase. You do get non extremist misogyny. It talks big and makes women feel shit and ruins lives but it doesn't go out and shoot 6 people.

But then maybe I can see that difference, because to me anyway there is no main stream religion that is quite nice and harmless either. They are all fairly shit but then you add extremism to the mix and people get killed.

ReallyFuckingFedUp · 27/05/2014 18:42

The pubescent padded bra has been hijacked by the faux-feminist family values brigade as a symbol of moral decline, along with the kiddie pole-dancing kit and the playboy bunny pencil case.

Shock wait. What? While I still very much enjoyed the Op's article, I almost which I could boil my eyeballs after reading that donkeyskin Does she have children? Has she ever met a seven year old?

scallopsrgreat · 27/05/2014 19:31

I think you are thinking of Sarah Ditum Really.

I'm tending to agree with Koala about the term extreme misogyny. I think it is "othering" Rodger and what he did. And once someone is othered then it is easier to dismiss what he did as a one off. Whereas this misogyny actually happens everyday.

ApocalypseThen · 27/05/2014 22:03

I notice in the comments on CIF that many men really refuse to see killing women because you don't have sexual access to them against their will as misogyny. Boy, if that's not misogyny, misogyny must be like, really bad.

DonkeySkin · 28/05/2014 11:33

RFFU, Penny is 27 and has no kids. But I don't think you need to have kids to realise that there is something deeply wrong with making 7-year-old girls into sexual objects. Her function as a 'tame feminist' in the liberal-left media is to point out instances of sexism and misogyny while simultaneously denying the structural and systemic roots of same and shutting down women with a more radical analysis.

Many liberal feminists do this, but Penny goes the extra mile by attacking women who criticise the sex industry in explicitly misogynist terms, regularly calling them prudes and implying that their objections to the commodification of women and girls as sexual objects for men's use is grounded in their own frigidity rather than a cogent political analysis. She is lauded and rewarded by male lefties for her willingness to do this, and, as others have pointed out, her career is now basically invested in this stance.

I also don't think the piece linked to here is very enlightening. The more I think about her framing of the Rodger murders as 'misogynist extremism', the more inaccurate it seems.

Violent extremism always attracts the lost, the broken, young men full of rage at the hand they’ve been dealt. Violent extremism entices those who long to lash out at a system they believe has cheated them, but lack they courage to think for themselves, beyond the easy answers they are offered by pedlars of hate.

Here she is explicitly characterising 'misogynist extremism' as a separate ideology, whereas IMO while Rodger's actions were extreme, his beliefs were not - they were entirely of a piece with the commodification, objectification and plain misogyny in the general culture. All kinds of men, young and old, refer to women as 'stupid sluts' and think we 'owe' them time, attention and sex. You don't need to join up with a fringe extremist group to imbibe these views.

I think the Karen Ingala Smith article WhentheRed linked to offers the best analysis of Rodger's actions, because it explicitly connects his motivations with the less spectacular, much less public, murder of women by men intimately known to them, but which are driven by the same male entitlement to women's space, bodies and lives, as she puts it. The constant stream of domestic murders of women and children by their male intimates offers a closer political parallel with the Rodger massacre than do Neo-Nazi fascist groups, IMO.

kareningalasmith.com/2014/05/26/well-id-rather-see-you-dead-little-girl-than-to-be-with-another-man-male-entitlement-to-womens-spaces-bodies-and-lives-2/

Addendum: I should say that in stating that male violence against women is usually intimate in nature, this doesn't mean that I don't think it has a controlling effect on women as a group, or, moreover, that this effect is not intentional, both on the part of the men who commit the violence and those who excuse it. Men of all cultures use violence to control women as a group, specifically to ensure that we remain available for sexual and reproductive use on their terms, and 'isolated' cases of women being punished for disobedience are meant to serve as a warning to all women. I also think that most men value this control, on some level, even if they say they abhor violence. That's why it's so difficult for feminists to make any headway in reducing it, why so many men get away with VAW with impunity, and why so many furiously deny the political aspect of VAW.

Further addendum: A complicating factor here, and one that Penny mentions, is the rise of MRA groups. I suppose her argument is (partly) that these groups are analogous to far-right racist organisations in that they have an explicitly political, organised anti-feminist agenda, and their ideology encourages members to target any women in public space rather than just those they know in private (per the constant anonymous abuse high-profile women like Penny have to deal with). I agree that this is very concerning, and it is also obviously a direct response to feminist victories over the past 40 years, especially WRT making it possible for women to escape abusive or just unhappy marriages with their children. Perhaps if this is just the start of a wave of MRAs targeting women publicly for violence, the analogy with fascist groups will be more accurate. But I still think Rodger's actions are best understood within the context of generalised male entitlement to women.

Even further addendum: Sorry about the long rant. I've been thinking about this a lot today.

AskBasil · 28/05/2014 11:40

"Her function as a 'tame feminist' in the liberal-left media is to point out instances of sexism and misogyny while simultaneously denying the structural and systemic roots of same and shutting down women with a more radical analysis."

Yep. With very few exceptions, that is actually the function of any feminist who gets consistent, prolongued mainstream media exposure like Penny does.

The ones who don't have this function, have far more difficulty in getting media exposure.

BriarRainbowshimmer · 28/05/2014 11:49

Wow the article by KarenIngala Smith was sobering.

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