Not all men

[AskBasil]

Interesting article here

Yes, actually kim, I did know it was up to me.

I think we should do it as a social experiment. Everyone on the feminist board should start writing 'men as a class' rather than 'men' as that is more accurate. It isn't accurate to say 'some' because saying 'some' removes all structural and systemic connotations.

If people complain just as much about the phrase 'men as a class' as 'men' then the issue is not that people dislike accuracy, is that people dislike having sexism pointed out.

FWIW, I am Christian too, and still see truth as it's expressed by humans as socially constructed and partial. Although it's a religious quotation, 'we see through a glass darkly' is, IMO, an acknowledgement of that general human awareness.

This is a nicer line of argument that what's gone before, so on this note I think I'll say bye for now.

Buffy Yes, that's right male readers. Deep down, at core, I fear you. I fear your potential violence. I fear it because of those Some Men and what they do to women. There are enough of them about and we are taught that we are vulnerable to them.

Doesn't that bother you more than a semantic rhetorical device that you have mistakenly taken as a personal attack? If it doesn't, then there is nothing about the language we use to describe the problem that will make any difference.

I agree.

The whole 'we have to put the word some in front of reasonable generalisations, in case it offends someone' thing seems to be a massive derail.

Take the misquote "Men are potential rapists" as an example.

I would expect men who have never raped anyone to look at that and think,

'hmmm, maybe there is a silent 'some' in their, because I know I haven't done that, and I'm pretty sure that most of my male friends haven't either.'

and not

'Those fucking feminazis are starting on the rape lies again, lets do all we can to derail and threaten them.'

Even if we put the word some into the misquote, then certain men will still see it as an attack. It changes nothing. This is an extreme example, so before anyone leaps on me and tells me I am WRONG, I will point out that it was just for illustrative purposes.

And no, feminism will never be a particularly mainstream ideology, because Patriarchy. I wouldn't always try and explore ideas in real life as honestly as I would on here, because there is always the tingling fear that, if a man feels threatened enough, he will become violent. It has happened to me far too often for me to want to take that risk.

'Yes, that's right male readers. Deep down, at core, I fear you. I fear your potential violence. I fear it because of those Some Men and what they do to women. There are enough of them about and we are taught that we are vulnerable to them.

Doesn't that bother you more than a semantic rhetorical device that you have mistakenly taken as a personal attack? If it doesn't, then there is nothing about the language we use to describe the problem that will make any difference.'

No, it does not bother me, sorry. No more than I believe that the nice polite group of young black men should be bothered by the fact that I may fear them because SOME (a disproportionate amount) of young black males commit violent crime. An individual is not responsible for the actions of others.

apparently some men are arseholey enough to zero in on a heartfelt post detailing the emotional terrorism that structural oppression actually entails, and then make it about them

god, some men are total wastes of space, the wankers

apropos of sod all, whatever happened to the poster, AllyGrylls? i liked her, she was a good sort.

Feminists will not be given a free pass to air our views about men as a class if we suddenly start saying "some men" or "not all men" instead of "men".

Anti-feminists will just move on to their next silencing tactic.

What should we do to the next patriarchy supporter who says "women" instead of "some women" or "not all women"?

kim, how many atheists are raped and murdered by Christians because of their atheism?

Oh look.

I don't think we're discussing valid parallels. I think we're derailing into a 'poor menz' argument.

Even I think that talking about christians is going off topic. And I was the one who brought up the subject!

But if you all want to go into that subject, that is up to you all.