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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Clifford has been convicted

37 replies

CailinDana · 28/04/2014 15:28

I was worried Yewtree was going to be held up as a witchhunt and become an MRA touchstone for "false allegation" bullshit.

The one thing that hits the wrong note I think is a thumbnail on the bbc website that says "Despite claiming he led a "very active" but wholly consensual sex life, publicist-to-the-stars Max Clifford has been found guilty of eight counts of indecent assault," because it implies that an "active" sex life will prevent a predator from attacking, which of course is bullshit as sexual assault has no more link to sex than hitting someone has to stroking them. I mean, would an article say "despite having plenty of pets to stroke, the man has been found guilty of punching someone" - it makes no bloody sense.

OP posts:
CaptChaos · 28/04/2014 16:50

Good, rapey fucker that he is. Remains to be seen if he gets a solid custodial sentence though. Given that one of his victims was 15, I hope it's a long one.

TeiTetua · 28/04/2014 17:35

The BBC tells the story pretty well:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27192600

His daughter was pictured outside the court with him. I wonder what thoughts were going through her head.

HeartHotWaterBottle · 28/04/2014 17:36

Has he????

God his daughter will be angry

Greythorne · 28/04/2014 17:37

Good.

Justice for his victims.

I was worried only the dead abusers (Savile, Cyril Smith) were going to be pilloried and the living ones all walk away.

VivaLeBeaver · 28/04/2014 17:39

His daughter will probably still believe him and think he's innocent.

HeartHotWaterBottle · 28/04/2014 17:43

I guess - it's one of the things that I find most difficult, that men appear to zone in and zone out on what they do to females, e.g. be a loving father to a daughter and then sexually abuse other females, or whatever the situation is.

I dunno, I don't understand it.

CaptChaos · 28/04/2014 18:06

Sad thing... so many comments on this are prefaced with the words 'If he's guilty'. What do those women have to do to make society believe that he did that to them ffs?

rosabud · 28/04/2014 19:39

*I guess - it's one of the things that I find most difficult, that men appear to zone in and zone out on what they do to females, e.g. be a loving father to a daughter and then sexually abuse other females, or whatever the situation is.

I dunno, I don't understand it.*

I'v been thinking about that, too, this afternoon, Heart. Clifford, despite the fact that what he was accused of doing is exactly what he was actually doing, does not think he has done anything wrong. I think that's because men make women the gatekeepers of sex. Because he didn't hit/punch/hold the women down to make them have sex with him but, instead, manipulated them, this is "their fault" for letting their guard down and allowing him to have sex. In his eyes, the fact that they were underage, or otherwise in vulnerable positions compared to him, is not evidence of his horribleness or criminal activity, but evidence of their failure to guard themslves against men who "can't help themselves." Men who think like this place their daughters in a seperate category because they think their daughters are "better" - ie they will be more aware of men's needs and trickery and guard the gate against sex with more success and thus "protect themslves."

There is also the fact that, despite the age of consensual sex being 16, many people in our society seem to think that the age of sexual consent is really on some sort of sliding scale with 9 being terrible, 13 a bit awful but understandable if she was wearing high heels and 15 being OK really.

I wonder if, with this conviction, the tide is beginning to turn and men's manipulation of women, particularly vulnerable women, into "consenting" to sex is finally being challenged.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 29/04/2014 00:26

I hope so, rosabud.

Interesting that Max Clifford was one of the people speaking in defence of John Leslie when it came out that he was who Ulrika Johnson was naming as her rapist.

He's an example of the men who don't think it was rape because he didn't drag a stranger into an alley.

CailinDana · 29/04/2014 07:25

I'd go one further than that rosabud. Men are sent totally contradictory messages about women. Their mum, nan, aunt etc are clearly lovely, strong, respectable people whom they love. But they are told by society that women are worthless and deserve no respect. They are just objects to be ogled, pinched, slapped and degraded. Some men (like Clifford) are far too stupid to say "hang on, it's one or the other, it can't be both." They absorb the idea that women are worthless and go along with treating them like shit but in order to deny and ignore the fact that if they can do that to those women, another man can do the same thing to their mother/aunt/sister/nan they just divide women into the classic madonna/whore categories. So their mother/aunt etc is clean and pure and doesn't deserve degradation. But other women, who are not as clean and pure, but are sluts who don't cover themselves up, who pretend to be older etc, do deserve to be raped/groped.
It must be absolutely awful to be a partner to someone like that. What happens when you have a baby and you're suddenly a mother and therefore not allowed to be a person any more? Because a wife and mother who is also a sexual being threatens this kind of man's mindset in a really fundamental way.

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TheDoctrineOfSnatch · 29/04/2014 19:50

Rosa, great post,

VivaLeBeaver · 29/04/2014 20:45

How many years is he likely to get?

CaptChaos · 30/04/2014 06:31
  1. That was the tariff at the time he committed these particular crimes. So, out in a year.
AskBasil · 01/05/2014 20:38

There will doubtless be an appeal.

EdithWeston · 02/05/2014 14:30

He has been sentenced to 8 years, to serve a minimum of 4 before being considered for parole.

SunshineBossaNova · 02/05/2014 14:41

8 years. I'm delighted.

JustTheRightBullets · 02/05/2014 15:14

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

scallopsrgreat · 02/05/2014 16:16

Smile Good!

CaptChaos · 02/05/2014 16:37

Agree.

Good.

Wait out for the appeal.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch · 02/05/2014 16:38

Link to sentencing report / trigger warning:

www.judiciary.gov.uk/Resources/JCO/Documents/Judgments/sentencing-remarks-hhj-leonard-r-v-clifford.pdf

CaptChaos · 02/05/2014 17:13

I've just finished reading it. It is awful. Vile odious man.

munkysea · 02/05/2014 19:36

Grim reading.

Louise1956 · 03/05/2014 23:50

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scottishmummy · 03/05/2014 23:53

Its about
Fear
Diminished voice
Scared of not being believed
His authority and status as power
Denial if painful event
I completely understand delayed reporting

scottishmummy · 03/05/2014 23:54

Sentence significant as yes he needs to serve min 4yr prior to parole appeal
Max sentence was 10 yr