Why is stripping / prostitution seen as empowering for women...

[Callani]

...when no other job is?

I've been thinking about the language used by advocates for prostitution and strip clubs etc and this really bothers me.

Punters say that women (and the occasional male stripper / prostitute) have the power in the relationship because they're getting cash - that by receiving money for what they're doing empowers them and takes the power away from the men, but it's bull isn't it?

I mean, when I buy meat at the butchers I don't think "Ah that's so nice that I've empowered him" in fact, I can't think of a single instance where I've felt that I've given someone power by buying a product or service from them. If anything, the butcher is reliant on my continuing custom and, if I was a dick, I could use that to my advantage.

Similarly, I like getting paid for my work but I don't find it empowering and I certainly don't have the power in this relationship - if I wanted to have an effect on my employer I'd have to get unionised and there'd still be no guarantee of things going my way.

Can anyone think of a non sexwork related example where it is empowering to be on the receiving end of money rather than the giving end? I'd be genuinely interested if someone could point out a flaw in my argument.

The only time I've come across the semantics of being "empowered" is during business reorganisations. I've been made redundant a few times and each of them was preceded by a 'consultation' that promised to make employees empowered by being able to influence the change that was happening.

Of course it was bollocks, just senior management (the power holders) using words to placate the proles.

Not sure if any comparisons can be made to prostitution and stripping though.

I think it's sad that we both live in a culture in which men like to see women perform for them in this objectified way

I'd quite like to live in a culture that was quite happy to see both men and women perform for men and women in an objectified way without it spilling over into life outside of the performance.

I still probably wouldn't go to that type of establishment mind, just don't object in principle. Just context.

Yeah, I know you're right Buffy, I was just being facetious (forgot the obligatory smilies!).

I'm an optimist sometimes.

Stripping gives the women a TEMPORARY and somewhat tenuous power over the men and society who enslave her.

The 'empowerment' is not real and can be taken away by the man at any time simply by choosing another woman to watch.

It is an illusion of power. I sympathise with the women who fall for it.

aggressive behaviour against strippers that would be from men, not feminists, particularly bearing in mind that clubs have to hire men to keep other men off the women dancing.

Men run the clubs, procure women to dance (they're not hired or employed) for the benefit of men and hire other men to keep those men off the product. Many levels of disillusion are at play.

I don't see how this thread or any discussion by women of the dynamics of stripping or prostitution can be disempowering any more than the act of dancing or prostitution can be empowering.

I have to say though,in thirteen years of working as a stripper, never once have I heard a colleague utter the words 'I feel empowered', when discussing their reasons for doing it as an occupation. I was blissfully unaware of this 'opinion' for many years.

Festered, I doubt it would come from those in the profession but I know feminism would project opinion into it. The inherent nature of some struggles is about agency and power, feminism is in that category. As such it is a movement from dis-empowerment to empowerment, toward ideals of social justice. Because of that there will always be disagreements about how far along that path things have moved, especially when it comes to personal choice framed Vs wider social context. In slavery it would be an 'Uncle Tom' moment, someone judged by others as being in denial, complicit in their own dis-empowerment and, by extension, oppression of others.

Thus the choice-advocate end of feminism, mostly liberal younger feminists, cheer for Belle Knox bagging the patriarchy as she claims empowerment and a liberated sexuality through employment in abuse porn while at the other end, mostly older conservative feminists, imagine society as so deeply 'run, controlled and legitimised by men' they would deny women owning agency even as the seek to empower them to have it.

A woman making a choice to be a stripper, if that choice is seen as 'significant' it will not just be cast as 'making a choice' by others, it will be either extrapolated that she is oppressed/deluded/naive or independent/aware/articulate, depending on the ground they themselves see as 'correct'.

If the woman wore more clothes and was a model then she would be envied by women and desired by men, or if she took her clothes off for an art class she would be a muse, admired by women and desired by men. Be a stripper or a prostitute though and plenty of people you never knew will have an opinion about who you 'really' are and the validity of what you do or think you do.

^^ well there's a mansplanation if ever I saw one.

well there's a mansplanation if ever I saw one.

A one line invocation of gendered shut-down as a shaming tactic is a poor substitute for reason and debate IMO.

Again this is women judging other predominantly women's choices

"If the woman wore more clothes and was a model then she would be envied by women and desired by men, or if she took her clothes off for an art class she would be a muse, admired by women and desired by men. Be a stripper or a prostitute though and plenty of people you never knew will have an opinion about who you 'really' are and the validity of what you do or think you do."

Rubbish. I don't envy models and I'm pretty sure many other women don't either. And both of those jobs (in your eyes) involve being desired by men as a mark of success, although many life classes feature a variety of bodies, the point being to learn to draw, not to leer. Someone being described as someone's muse tends to have a long term relationship with them, whether friendship or more, and may or may not be widely desired or admired,

Why do you think these girls think "I'm going to take my clothes off for men's titilation?" They don't think that when they go into stripping, can't comment on prostitution as I've never knowingly spoke to a prostitute, they normally think how can I make a lot of money for doing the least amount of hours. It's not about men, they don't do it for men - they use men as a means to and end.

Buffy the only people I see here speaking about empowerment are the feministsts - no one else sees it as this, you have two people here who have actually done the job but say they don't use those words, the people I know who do it/used to do it don't use those words yet you continue to use them?

Are woman socialised to think their primary role is to be decorative? that might be the case in your mind buffy but that's certainly not what most woman think.

Anyway, there you go. I've searched the literature for you and everything.

ah gee thanks...

buffy my opinion is just that - whilst i am happy to express it i dont try and force it on anyone or judge people for what they do.

why do woman talk about clothes? between me and my friends its classed as small talk... we take an interest in each other - flattery even... i do agree older woman should not be fired from TV shows because their looks dont suit someone else - its absolutely wrong. sorry in my RL world i have never come across any woman being called ugly because they speak out?

I agree that many feminists become more radical as they get older, I certainly have. I see the world and men more clearly, than I ever did when I was younger.

A one line invocation of gendered shut-down as a shaming tactic is a poor substitute for reason and debate IMO.

says the mansplainer. Your post was trite and mansplaining. No need for any further debate. That is all.

grennie and others, this so-called third wave is more than twenty years old now so it's hardly an old vs young thing. There are lots of young radfems and lots of older libfems. Anyone who thinks it is an old vs young thing is clearly misguided.

Yes the radical feminists I meet are a wide variety of ages. But then lots of people write or talk critically about feminism, when they haven't a clue what they are talking about.