My husband and rape

[pregnantpause]

My dh and I have just had a huge argument about rape. He thinks that girls can do things to protect themselves. I think that blaming victims is ridiculous, and men who rape do so for power and control and because they feel entitled to the objects they think women are. Dh thinks we can dress less provocatively, stay in groups, don't get drunk, and make ourselves safer. I think this is victim blaming and rather sickening . I appreciate if you get drunk and can't look after yourself you have made yourself more vulnerable , but I don't accept that we should teach our dds his ethos. In fact I'm appalled. Should I be ? I'm genuinely reconsidering him as a person,I'm so shocked By this. What would you think? Do?

One of the things he might want to mull over, is how common rape and sexual assault are.

25% of women get raped or sexually assaulted but most people think it's quite rare. It isn't. If he knows 4 women, then statistically he knows one who has been raped or sexually assaulted. If he knows 40 women, then he knows 10 who men have chosen to rape or sexually assault and he won't know who they are because victim-blaming ensures that women are silenced about their rapes. We don't talk about it in public because we know that either we won't be believed, or we will be blamed. But he is insulting any woman he knows, who is a survivor and he doesn't know who he is insulting because just like rapists don't have R tattooed on their forehead, their victims and/ or survivors, don't have V's or S's tattooed on their's.

Only 10-15% of women ever report rape because of victim-blaming attitudes like your husband's. Point out that he is part of the problem: every time he blames a victim, he makes the world a little bit safer for rapists and a little bit less safe for you and your daughters and all the rest of us. Whose side is he on? Whose side does he want to be on?

Another thing: most rapes are pre-planned and rapists choose their victims quite carefully. They are careful to choose victims who won't be believed or who will be blamed or blamed themselves so they won't be reported or if they are, they won't be charged or if they are, they won't be convicted. So every time a rapist hears people say being drunk or dressing provocatively or losing your friends causes rape, they hear that there is nothing wrong with what they do quite regularly at the weekends: your husband (and anyone else who repeats rape myths) is unwittingly validating rapist's behaviour, offering them succour and support. Meanwhile the victim who overhears your husband's views, has it reinforced that it's her fault and has her feelings invalidated. Ask him if he means to do things that way round, chances are he doesn't.

It's possible on the one hand that your DH has just uncritically absorbed some extremely prevalent rape myths without bothering to question them because he thinks rape doesn't affect him or anyone he cares about.

It's entirely possible on the other hand that he is a bog standard sexist arsehole.

I hope for your sake it's the first and he changes his mind but frankly I am getting extremely bored with men (as a class!) being, I think, wilfully ignorant about such a big problem of violence. I think many men who think of themselves as the good guys are still heavily invested in not believing what women say about rape - because hearing and believing it would mean they would actually have to get off their arses and help change our culture.

My DS is 20 and my DD 18. I tell them both not to drink too much and not to get separated from their mates.
I also talk to DD a lot about red flags and about dealing with situations where she feels uncomfortable. So things like the creepy supervisor who hits on her at work, the friend's boyfriend who has groped in a nightclub on a couple of occasions. I think in the long run learning to be assertive will stand her in better stead than not wearing a short skirt.

Show him this (warning - it's very upsetting). It's the responses of women to a request on Twitter to describe what they were wearing when they were raped. I can't see any where the women were dressed provocatively.

Actually, thinking about it, I have never talked to DS about consent or treating women respectfully. I suppose I just take it for granted because he is a generally a laid back, unagressive type of lad.

I think there are some things you can do to minimise the risk. Ie not walking alone late at night, keeping your drink with you at all times etc. I don't agree with drinking less or dressing less provocatively though.

Rape, as we know, is often commuted by people close to us (as I well know) which I'm not sure you can do much to stop.

However, there are some things you can do to protect from 'stranger rape'. Many of the things you'd do to avoid getting mugged I guess.

Your DH arguments are a bit victim blaming

The only thing you can do to avoid rape is not be unfortunate enough to encounter a rapist when he feels like raping

You've given me a lot to talk and think about. I am feeling better about dh after discussing it again (sober this time) Dh has apologised,and assures me that his opinion was mainly based in a need to be able to control bad things or protect our dds. He struggles with accepting that they cannot be protected and all we can do is educate them, keep them safe and hope to god they're okay . A very heavy conversation all in all- he cannot talk about this kind of thing without directly applying it to our dds/me. Discussing feminism/ the patriarchy has shocked him.

As he noticed more and more sexism in the workplace he got angry and struggled too- we work together and he had been blind to casual sexist attitudes beforehand. He's lost many friends over it since we got together. I think he's just adjusting after realising the privilege / patriarchy, that he's part of , is a horrible model,which I don't think he likes to believe in when thinking of our daughters. (Nor do I but it's there)

Well patriarchy should shock him - it scares the living bejeezus out of me.

Well, good that he's shocked.

It does make me wonder though (and maybe this is a topic for a separate thread) what can men actually do once they are aware of sexism and the patriarchy? Are they any more equipped to change things than we are?

I think they are in their own small way, same as we are in our own small way. Say, "that's not funny" when a mate is joking about getting a woman drunk and having sex with her, just as they would if a mate was making racist jokes etc.

If he wants to protect your DDs then one way would be to say something when other men talk about women in a derogatory fashion or excuse rape or sexist behaviour.

Yep, he needs to be part of a culture which finds it unacceptable to make rape jokes and in order to be part of such a culture, he has to help build it.

Another thing I was thinking of. I've had numerous conversations with people who do the old "you wouldn't leave your mobile phone on a table and go off to the loo, so why are you leaving your vagina in an unsafe place" argument and it struck me for the first time (dur) how utterly specious and invalid the comparison is.

It can only be a valid comparison, if deep down you have the same psychology about a valuable object and a human being. I don't think I'd ever knowingly steal someone's phone/ watch/ other item, but I can imagine being seized by a moment of madness where I just pick it up and put it in my pocket (would prob be racked with guilt later, but that's not the point here). I cannot imagine being seized by a moment of madness where I deliberately violate another human being's physical boundaries in order to make myself feel good. I just cannot see that ever happening because the fact that they are human and they would react with fear and pain, would make me feel bad about myself and stop me. In fact, I can't see myself deliberately putting a cat or dog or even a frog through terror and possibly pain, just to make myself feel good. How is it that we still live in a society where the psychology of being so cruel, is equated with slipping a mobile phone into your pocket and making off with it?

Your DH should be very worried that his DD's are living in a world that is still defining them as useful objects. The best thing he can do for them, is help change it.

Ah the good old removable vagina - I asked my gynaecologist about getting mine out so I could lock it in a safe instead of leaving it in stupid places ALL THE TIME like on the pub table when I went to the loo. Unfortunately it looks like it's stuck where it is for the time being, you know, attached to me rather than being some accessory I can just leave at home for security.

Just ask him if he has ever had an uncontrollable urge to force himself on someone.

If he hasn't then why is he making excuses for other men.

What about him, does he dress so that another male does not rape him?

". How is it that we still live in a society where the psychology of being so cruel, is equated with slipping a mobile phone into your pocket and making off with it?"

Because a lot of people think rape is about sex and not about violence.

Great post nicetabard

If you would like a non-rapist to feel more or less attracted to you, there are conventional and unconventional things you can do to edge that one way or another. Flirt/don't flirt. Brush your teeth/don't bother.

Because many people think rape is sex gone wrong, rather than a serious assault, they think by following "sexy/not sexy conventions" that you can impact on rape. But it's as nonsensical as saying "wear a round neck t shirt not a v neck, son, and no one will start a fight with you"

Sorry but dh is an idiot!

Well, kinda. But he's an idiot in lots of company (and has rethought after speaking further with OP)

Most women who are raped, are raped by someone they know. Often their boyfriend, partner or Husband. It is important that girls know how to recognise red flags, and know that you will always support them to leave a partner who treats them badly.

It does make me wonder though (and maybe this is a topic for a separate thread) what can men actually do once they are aware of sexism and the patriarchy? Are they any more equipped to change things than we are?

Good TED talk about violence against women being a man's issue

It is ridiculous and controlling to suggest to women that they shouldn't be out alone after dark. How does he think women get home from work or activities, or from classes if the daughter goes to university?

DD travels home on her own from activities every week. She is 13. It is completely normal.

I agree with everything that's been said on this thread.

But until there has been a sea-change in attitudes, and the message to men (not to rape) instead of to women (to be careful) starts to sink in, how do we attempt to protect ourselves and our DDs?

Because the fact is, there are certain behaviours that might lay one more open to attack, if one does happen to be in the presence of a rapist. which let's face, does happen. Women get taped, because they're in the presence of a rapist.

If a rapist is on the prowl, then they probably are going to target certain people over others.

Don't get me wrong - I hate what I'm saying here. I understand that by thinking this, I'm basically colluding in the victim-blaming mentality that is so prevalent.

But the idea of telling my DD she has a right to do whatever she likes (even though she absolutely does), feels somewhat irresponsible, and as if I'm putting principle above practicality.

Until there are no rapists left in the world, then what do we say to our DDs to try to keep them safe?