My husband and rape

[pregnantpause]

My dh and I have just had a huge argument about rape. He thinks that girls can do things to protect themselves. I think that blaming victims is ridiculous, and men who rape do so for power and control and because they feel entitled to the objects they think women are. Dh thinks we can dress less provocatively, stay in groups, don't get drunk, and make ourselves safer. I think this is victim blaming and rather sickening . I appreciate if you get drunk and can't look after yourself you have made yourself more vulnerable , but I don't accept that we should teach our dds his ethos. In fact I'm appalled. Should I be ? I'm genuinely reconsidering him as a person,I'm so shocked By this. What would you think? Do?

I think if you have dd's you do need to speak to them about protecting themselves and minimising the risks of sexual assault. Do you not think this is appropriate?

I think that you can do this without 'blaming the victim'.

You have to work with the society we live in. Your. Dh's view is not unusual. I remember a relative expressing something similar and being really angry. However you may find that, after explaining the reality to him, he may change his position

Hopefully!

I agree with you OP.

Not sure what you can say to him as he's not going to listen. Like most rapes are carried out by someone known to the victim. Like all of the things he suggests do nothing to reduce rape and everything to make women feel nervous and victimised 100% of the time.

Don't know where to put attitudes like this. Unfortunately lots of people have them - it's the old magical thinking thing isn't it. If I do this and do this it won't happen to me. And anyone it has happened to must have done something and if I don't do anything wrong it won't happen to me.

Like the old "ooh don't get in an unlicenced cab scary scary" when in London you were most at risk from black cabs for many years.

Fact is that the risk factor for rape is being with a rapist, in a situation where they can rape you. 2 ways of tackling that risk. Think "oh I'll never be alone with a man again" so give up work, ever going anywhere by yourself, or ever having a relationship with a man or being alone with any family member. Or you can just get on with it.

Clearly there are things that everybody should think about - men women and children - if a situation seems off then get out, try not to get falling down drunk in the middle of nowhere etc etc, but this is advice that goes across the board.

All this women you are prey promulgated by certain US detective shows and ads like the TFL one for minicabs only serve to impose a certain low level fear on all females while they go about their daily business and overlook that men are also subjected to violent crime and sex crime and no fucker ever tells them not to go out with their top shirt button undone or in a tight t-shirt.

DH has said similar things to me in the past. I was livid angry and set about shouting reeducating him. On pushing a more thoughtful discussion, he reconsidered, or really seemed to, as Me2Me2 suggests.

I think that this is all part of men's cultural legacy, and particularly these bizarre ideas about protecting women and by extension educating women to protect themselves. So it's doubly offensive, even disturbing / alarming in some cases, because their condescension derives from the same attitude that violence against women does, of male authority and power. There's also something about distancing themselves morally from rape - this is done by distancing themselves from the victim (I think the route is rape->sex->woman iyswim). Anyway that was a bit of a brain barf but I absolutely agree it's galling and upsetting but it's the reaction to the deeper discussion that I would pay attention to.

I think it's reasonable to teach them caution about overdoing alcohol - not so much because of not being able to defend themselves against would-be rapists, but because there's generally an increased risk of accidents and so on, even alcohol poisoning at its extreme.

I think it's also sensible to teach them that if they're walking home at night, it's preferable not to be on their own, and to know where they're going, and to avoid shortcuts down dark alleys - but again, that is just sensible advice that is applicable to both sexes. (I've never had a problem walking home to my house - but a couple of my male friends were attacked on their way back here from the pub a few years back.)

But the emphasis there on both those things is just taking sensible precautions about situations anyone can find themselves in.

I would avoid the victim-blaming stuff about not dressing provocatively, because there's plenty of evidence that it makes no difference to whether you'll get raped or not. What I would try and teach them (and again, this is just as important for men to know as well as women) is a good understanding of consent and respect, to have an understanding of what sexual assault and rape actually is, particularly as it's not so often the stranger in a dark alley, but more likely to be someone already known to them.

People always like to make the analogy about leaving your house unlocked and being surprised when you get burgled. And there is some truth to that. Sadly, there are bastards in this world with no morality, no respect for the law and a full sense of entitlement to other people's property.

Where the big difference comes in, is that even if a house is left unlocked and is burgled, a) the victim will still be believed and b) the burglar will still be arrested and considered equally as guilty in the eyes of the law. The victim will not be told they were "asking for it" by leaving the house unlocked, they burglar will get no sympathy for "not being able to help himself".

However, rape victims will be disbelieved. They will be told they asked for it. Rapists will be given sympathy for being "taunted" by a short skirt or a drunk woman. And while every single burglar knows exactly what they are because we're taught from day 1 "Don't steal", the simple fact remains that many, many rapists simply don't realise they are rapists. Men are not taught "don't rape". Or they're only taught " don't jump out on unsuspecting women from behind bushed and force your penis into them". But boys seem to be expected to push boundaries, to not accept "no" for an answer - society teaches that boys should naturally want to push things as far as they can that girls "like" to be persuaded. Every teen movie I've ever seen has a story along these lines.

For some reason, teaching children "don't steal" is okay. It's a good life lesson - children are entitled little critters and need to be taught clear boundaries. No-one has ever said that when we teach children that we're assuming all children are thieves. But for some reason, whenever it's suggested that boys should be taught "don't rape" while girls are being taught to dress modestly, to stay in groups and not to get drunk, there are horrified howls of "you're assuming all boys are rapists!"

So yes, we all have some responsibility for our own safety, and there will always be evil people we should be alert to. But we also need to start teaching boys to ask for consent - every time and at every stage of a sexual encounter. We need to teach them to respect women. We need to teach them that rape rarely happens in dark alleyways. We need to teach them that sex without absolute 100% consent and enthusiasm is rape.

I suggest you make your viewpoint on this very clear to your DH. It's possible, as a man in the position of privilege when it comes to sexual assault, he may not have thought his position through properly. You need to make sure he really understands what he's saying. If, after some serious though on the subject he maintains this same position... well, like you say, I'd be reconsidering my relationship.

And my mother's worry was always that we'd get a kidney infection or hypothermia if we wore cropped tops or low waists, rather than rape. I don't know if she'd had a kidney infection once. I assume there has to be bacteria jumping around ready to infect you rather than just getting cold, for it to happen.

I am not admitting to ever having lectured anyone on the risks of hypothermia and the need to dress for the weather conditions.

Oh he's an arse.

Men get raped too. Does he take precautions?

His views are common, probably the prevalent view, in fact.

There was something on Twitter asking people to tweet what they were wearing when they were raped. jeans and a jumper seemed to be most commonly occurring outfit. Or whatever they wear around the house because they were in their home and being raped by their husband or other family member or friend.

Regardless of what precautions people can take to guard against the risk of being the victim of a crime a thief is still a thief even if you leave your door open and a rapist is still a rapist even if you are drunk or wearing a short skirt. Rapist don't rape because women do X Y or Z. They rape because they are rapists.

I would also educate my ds about precautions about not getting raped /assaulted as well, obviously.

Basic things, always trust your instincts, always watch your drinks (for spiking) watch your drink intake so you can keep a clear head, plan your journey home, stay in groups. I don't think advising these are blaming the victim. I told my dbs these things as teenagers and will tell both dcs or both sex (and any other young person I feel responsible for).

Something like 85-90% of rapes are committed by someone the woman knows.

If he wants to protect your DDs HE needs to be aware of this eg It's ok to be rude to a friend of a friend who seems to have an odd attitude to women. Get him to read "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin Beck. Get him to read the Twitter feed mentioned above. Point out to him that if anything happens to one of them, is he going to treat them differently if they were wearing a skirt rather than jeans? What if it's an ankle length skirt? A knee length skirt? A thigh length skirt? What if they were out and someone assaulted them with a punch in the face. Would clothing be to blame then? Rape is assault, not sex.

I'd take a different view - it's probable that he's just never really thought about it in detail.

I think if he really thought about the motivations of a rapist and actual situations that occur, he might change his mind. But currently he's extremely unlikely to end up a rape victim, so he has no reason to examine this in any particular detail.

The thing is that conventional, victim blaming logic sounds plausible. It makes sense to us and it doesn't take any effort to believe it. After a while of hearing it so often it just becomes cemented as fact in your mind. It does need challenging, but IMO it's not indicative that the holder of such beliefs is a terrible person, I think they just (usually) haven't thought about it much.

He is wrong because he is equating all rape with what is actually a subset (violent stranger rape) or myths (role and nature of lust).

Self defence and situation awareness are important, for both sexes, against crime. This point should not be lost.

But neither should it carry more weight than it can bear when discussing rape.

Well, I wouldnt go out and leave my door unlocked. However if I did, and was subsequently burgled, the blame would lie solely with the person who entered unlawfully.

So, to sum up, rapists are the offenders, the raped is the victim, however it is sensible to take steps to protect oneself agaist the possibility of rape.

The steps that OP's DH outlined though are the wrong argument. They are protective measure against a range of violent or harassment crimes, and some (such as what you wear subjective, unless he means only clothing that impedes physical movement). They are irrelevant to all but a subset of rapes. And that is why the argument fails.

Crime protection is not about victim blaming, I agree. It's about risk assessment, whatever crime you postulate. It does not usually assist debate about prevalence of rape, because it is misapplied (as above) nor does it tackle the societal questions of why any particular crime occurs.

Ask him this: who commits rape, men or women?

When he gives the obvious answer then say: so why is it women who are supposed to change the way they act? Why not tell men to stay in groups (so witnesses can prevent them from raping) and not get drunk (in case the drink "causes" them to rape? Oh and maybe agree to wear a chastity belt so their clothes prevent them from raping

See what he thinks.

This argument drives me crazy, I ranted recently about India Knight trotting out something similar.

There are two points which are being muddled together as a result of rape myths:

1. Risk prevention and personal protection are important for both sexes. If you get ridiculously drunk, wander around on your own, etc you are making yourself vulnerable to all sorts of horrible consequences. Like the boy from my school who decided to go for a swim in the docks and drowned. Or the many friends and acquaintances over the years who have lost wallets or key, been mugged, been ripped off by mini cab drivers, etc. One of those risks is also being a victim of violent assault of some form.

1. Rape. Which is fuck all to do with 'lust' for a girl in a short skirt in a bar. Honestly, the best way to 'protect' yourself from rape would be to never associate with a male relative of friend. Never have a boyfriend. Because those are the people most likely to rape you.

And why is the focus always on the victim. How about we go around telling men that they shouldn't drink because they might rape someone (because there is an apparent link between alcohol consumption and perpetrators).

For what I would do, I would probably sit him down and make him read this thread, and the many others like it. I agree, I would feel very different about my DH if he came out with this shit.

Unfortunately this view is very common even among women :(

Can anyone link to the article about addressed to men about how not to be rapists? I'll have a look, but it might be a good way to start with him.

Of course your DH is wrong (and unfortunately, common), but I'm sure you are aware of that. Is what you are asking more about what you should do now you have seen him in a different light? If so, it is difficult. I experienced something very similar with DP and I was sickened by some of the nonchalant comments he made. We had a blazing row about it and I got very upset. I think I have 'coached' him into a better way of thinking now. It's a working progress of course, but it seems to be working well.

Rape Crisis have this page on common rape myths.

only 9% of rapes are committed by 'strangers'. Women are raped in their homes and in their work places where they are less likely to be believed and even less likely to report.

That is quoted from the Home Office's official stats bulletin - I suggest he educates himself appropriately.

I would caution anyone going out at night to be wary of violence, to be wary of alcohol, and to stick with friends. Recent local cases of young men who have gone missing on nights out and died from drowning are particularly harrowing, and I have seen an element of victim blaming on Facebook here, too: own stupid fault for going out and getting drunk.

If I drink and drive, and crash into another car, is it the other driver's fault for not staying at home?

This one? slutwalkphoenix.wordpress.com/how-to-prevent-rape/

Or this: www.funnyjunk.com/funny_pictures/2756313/10/

They are both great links, and a good place to start with men who are, to be polite, clueless.

I especially like

How to prevent rape
How to Prevent Rape

If a woman is drunk, don’t rape her.
If a woman is walking alone at night, don’t rape her.
If a women is drugged and unconscious, don’t rape her.
If a woman is wearing a short skirt, don’t rape her.
If a woman is jogging in a park at 5 am, don’t rape her.
If a woman looks like your ex-girlfriend you’re still hung up on, don’t rape her.
If a woman is asleep in her bed, don’t rape her.
If a woman is asleep in your bed, don’t rape her.
If a woman is doing her laundry, don’t rape her.
If a woman is in a coma, don’t rape her.
If a woman changes her mind in the middle of or about a particular activity, don’t rape her.
If a woman has repeatedly refused a certain activity, don’t rape her.
If a woman is not yet a woman, but a child, don’t rape her.
If your girlfriend or wife is not in the mood, don’t rape her.
If your step-daughter is watching TV, don’t rape her.
If you break into a house and find a woman there, don’t rape her.
If your friend thinks it’s okay to rape someone, tell him it’s not, and that he’s not your friend.
If your “friend” tells you he raped someone, report him to the police.
If your frat-brother or another guy at the party tells you there’s an unconscious woman upstairs and it’s your turn, don’t rape her, call the police and tell the guy he’s a rapist.
Tell your sons, god-sons, nephews, grandsons, sons of friends it’s not okay to rape someone.
Don’t tell your women friends how to be safe and avoid rape.
Don’t imply that she could have avoided it if she’d only done/not done x.
Don’t imply that it’s in any way her fault.
Don’t let silence imply agreement when someone tells you he “got some” with the drunk girl.

And if you are still confused, try this:

How to Prevent Sexual Assault

1. Don’t put drugs in people’s drinks in order to control their behavior.

1. When you see someone walking by themselves, leave them alone!

1. If you pull over to help someone with car problems, remember not to assault them!

1. NEVER open an unlocked door or window uninvited.

1. If you are in an elevator and someone else gets in, DON’T ASSAULT THEM!

1. Remember, people go to laundry rooms to do their laundry, do not attempt to molest someone who is alone in a laundry room.

1. USE THE BUDDY SYSTEM! If you are not able to stop yourself from assaulting people, ask a friend to stay with you while you are in public.

1. Always be honest with people! Don’t pretend to be a caring friend in order to gain the trust of someone you want to assault. Consider telling them you plan to assault them. If you don’t communicate your intentions, the other person may take that as a sign that you do not plan to rape them.

1. Don’t forget: you can’t have sex with someone unless they are awake!

10. Carry a whistle! If you are worried you might assault someone “on accident” you can hand it to the person you are with, so they can blow it if you do.

And, ALWAYS REMEMBER: if you didn’t ask permission and then respect the answer the first time, you are committing a crime- no matter how “into it” others appear to be.