Lily Allen - 'Men should be men'

[Lottapianos]

www.standard.co.uk/showbiz/lily-allen-men-should-be-men-and-not-spend-ages-in-front-of-the-mirror-9170174.html

I try with Lily Allen, I really do. She has a lovely voice. Her song 'The Fear' is great. 'Hard Out Here' had a pretty feminist message. But then she comes out with utter airhead nonsense like this:

'Im not into men who are vain or even wearing aftershave. It gives me shivers. Men should be men. Go out, earn some money, come back and look after my children.'

Jesus, are we really still on this???! What 'real' men do and what 'real' women do? Man as breadwinner? Does she not earn any money then? Is that her 'man's' job? FFS

I guess I'm extra disappointed because at times she has got it right and written songs about young women's insecurity and the ridiculous body and beauty standards we are expected to conform to and then she comes out with old dinosaur nonsense like this. I'm both angry and disappointed

Okay well then the next time a person tells us that a 'real woman' is one who is maternal and skinny we cannot point out that is an unfeminist perspective.

Its exactly the same thing. Liking women who are maternal and skinny is very different to suggesting that only maternal and skinny women are 'real women'.

Fifyfomum: That would be exactly the same thing, if what LA was doing was making a generalisation on behalf of all women. As I read it, she was not, she was just stating her preference. A man is also allowed to do this of course, even if that preference is maternal and skinny.

Of course, but by saying that a 'real man' is one with certain qualities, she is expressing an unfeminist personal opinion. It is irrelevant whether she is speaking for all women or not(?) she is labelling all men as real or not real. That is unfeminist. Just like it would be racist for me to say 'black men are not real men' it doesn't matter if I am speaking for myself or for everybody in the world, still racist.

Fifyfomum: This is getting to theoretical for me, sorry. I think some of you are reading to much into this. I can only speculate as to why.

The line I found interesting was

'Go out, earn some money, come back and look after MY children'

Not our children or the children but my children.

Not sure how to interpret that.

Shockingly bad singer though.

Anyone speaking to the press is selectively quoted. I often have been. It is just how it is. Her basic message that men should help with children is a good one; that most women don't want a man who isn't prepared to help out at home.

I haven't been at all 'theoretical' I have merely commented on the comments that she has made and how pigeon holey they are.

Nothing to do with being theoretical, everything to so with having a black and white, unfeminist view of what a 'real' man is.

Her 'basic message' is that all men should conform to her narrow view of what a real man should be. This is just as offensive as 'real women have curves' or ' real women have children' or 'a good wife knows when to shut up. Real men and women come in all shapes and sizes and personality types - this kind of reductive nonsense just fuels prejudice and, as Fifyfomum has already explained, is profoundly anti feminist.

One last comment before you all (except LauraBridges) dig yourself too deep into this quote from the showbiz pages of Standard. She is expressing her personal (quite sane) view of what a man should be for her to be happy. Not how all men should be. If you want to interpret her quote word by word in the worst possible way in the name of feminism, then you are partaking in giving feminism an undederbedly bad reputation.

Should read undeserved bad reputation, sorry

Nothing I do is 'in the name of feminism' the fact is, that using the term 'real men' to describe your own particular choice in a mate is unfeminst.

'She is expressing her personal (quite sane) view of what a man should be for her to be happy.'

No, she's really not just expressing her personal view! She said 'men should be men', that's pretty unequivocal. If she'd just left it at 'my husband spends 12 seconds in front of the mirror and I love it', then ok. But she added in the 'men should be men' bit which is clearly her view of how men as a whole should behave, which I find extremely depressing.

'Why don't people like other people to think deeply about things?'

Buffy - I know!!!! I don't understand it either. All the accusations of 'overthinking' stuff..... It's just thinking!!!!!!

OK, I'll bite :-) Thinking can be great if not overdone. However, reading too much into something, over-analysing and interpreting something in the worst possible way, for something someone said in a situation we were not even present and then use this to attack them. Not cool!
Lottapianos, you say in your opening post that you try with LA, I'd say you are not trying at all.

You'll 'bite'?

I think the issue is with a obscure premise of what a conversation constitutes.

We are 'just' conversing about a quote made by someone who claims to be a feminist but has proven time and time again that her 'feminism' is merely a rouse to promote herself as 'edgy' in order to make money.

I believe it is very unfeminist to suggest that 'real men' are one thing or the other, even child abusing arsewipes are 'real men' they are just arsehole, a nice, gender neutral insult specially for them.

You can hold your head in the sand and pretend that words don't have power, but they do. It is no different for Lilly Allen to announce what a real man is, therefore isolating and possibly really upsetting men who are different to that, than it is for a male role model to suggest all women should be a certain way and in doing so upset women who may not for that narrow definition.

People come in all shapes and sizes, to suggest that whey are 'not real' for failing to meet ANY expectation is exactly what feminism attempts to change.

I hope that wasn't too 'theoretical' for you

Buffy The latter could by all means be discussed, preferably over a bottle og wine :-) The former is much closer to the OP-statement. And I find it unecessary to use something that was maybe/probably not meant like it possibly could be interpreted to attack that person.

buffy

I think of all the people feminists Should be picking on, Lilly Allen is one of the top deserving ones.

She makes money from jumping on the feminist bandwagon. She is a disgrace.

'Thinking can be great if not overdone'

Overdone by whose standards?!

Buffy, I agree with you about no-one being free from social influence.

I have tried with Lily Allen. And now I'm done. She's no feminist as far as I can see. And I don't get why some posters are falling over themselves to defend her, suggesting she was quoted out of context etc. What she said couldn't be any clearer as far as I'm concerned.

LittleVikingChick - well then no-one would have a discussion or opinion on anything if they weren't witness to the conversation taking place in the very room they were in in front of their very eyes!

Again, huge amounts of energy going into finding reasons why Lily Allen couldn't possibly have meant what she said. Very strange.

'My interpretation of the OP was that she really wanted to believe LA was the feminist she claims to be, an activist who promotes a strong feminist message through her work.'

Exactly right Buffy

I'll bite = I will take the bait and re-engage in the conversation. Another example of interpreting something incorrectly and assuming the worst Lottapianos?

There are many interesting topics to discuss and sometimes a discussion can be spurred on by a quote in a celebrity interview. However the topic can be discussed without throwing vitrio on the person which may or not have meant the worst interpretation possible.

As to overthinking, well if you think so much about something from the showbiz-pages that may or may not have been meant as you have interpreted it, that you make yourself grumpy and are about to loose your temper if somebody does not agree with you, I'd say you have overdone it. Don't feel bad about it though, we have all done it sometime or other :-)