Lily Allen - 'Men should be men'

[Lottapianos]

www.standard.co.uk/showbiz/lily-allen-men-should-be-men-and-not-spend-ages-in-front-of-the-mirror-9170174.html

I try with Lily Allen, I really do. She has a lovely voice. Her song 'The Fear' is great. 'Hard Out Here' had a pretty feminist message. But then she comes out with utter airhead nonsense like this:

'Im not into men who are vain or even wearing aftershave. It gives me shivers. Men should be men. Go out, earn some money, come back and look after my children.'

Jesus, are we really still on this???! What 'real' men do and what 'real' women do? Man as breadwinner? Does she not earn any money then? Is that her 'man's' job? FFS

I guess I'm extra disappointed because at times she has got it right and written songs about young women's insecurity and the ridiculous body and beauty standards we are expected to conform to and then she comes out with old dinosaur nonsense like this. I'm both angry and disappointed

wow.. thats right feminists. judge someone for what appeals to them.
Maybe you should considder that this isn't a generalisation and is a person preference. ffs.

Feminism is losing touch with young people because it tries to enforce to women who they should be attracted to.
Most women do prefer the 'traditional' male who pulls his weight with children.

Most women do prefer the 'traditional' male who pulls his weight with children.

Most traditional males didn't pull their weight with children. They merely owned them after divorce.

Couldn't give 2 shits what LA thinks of men, chocolate or in fact anything. Her opinion is not more valid than anyone else's.

Hence "who pulls his weight"

Hence, not traditional.

If gender roles are performative, then Lilly likes her male counterpart to conform to the stereotype of acting like a man. Despite being a feminist, to some extent I agree, preening and vanity in a man are not attractive, because we have been socialised to find masculinity which can only be judged against our own femininity to be attractive.

Why would you need "arsenal til you die" when posting a mum site?
Do you think you're going to war with nasty women or something, mr MRA?

Anyway, many young women are feminists.

If feminists can shave their legs, wear make upend high heels, then why can't a man conform to certain traditional male traits and yet not be a neanderthal sexist? You don't have to conform to modern metrosexual norms such as make up and a bucket of aftershave to have non-sexist values, and that may be what LA is referring to.

She's loathes herself and projects that onto other women, has a fake accent, obviously doesn't read or have awareness of anything remotely interesting, who really cares what she thinks?

Everybody has their own preferences and is entitled to that, it's offensive and ignorant to state that someone is less of a man (or woman) because they don't fit your personal ideal. I absolutely agree with you.

Feminists on mumsnet love nothing better than telling other women their feminism isn't good enough.

I'll give LA the benefit of the doubt and assume the journo, like most journos, wanted to write something to just accompany the advertising on the website and get home to their dinner.

Can't say i thought much of LA on graham norton recently though - she looked bored, bordering on rude. I don't get the feeling she gives a shit about the music anymore - just the earning money bit, but that's her prerogative

Loving L8 CMMR though, my kind of love song!

I don't want to comment on her quote because I'll bet my left kidney she's been goaded into saying it or quoted out of context.

What I would like to contribute (relative to her quote) is the the fact that I observe and dislike the way that 'equality' in consumerist terms is making men more vulnerable to female pressure (i.e. appearance- make up, styling, diets, etc.) rather than pushing women away from appearance-related pressure.

I totally get why men now submit to advertising and peer-pressure and get into using products and become vain.

It takes strength of character, peer support or self-esteem instilled from birth to look at magazines, advertising and peers and say 'fuck that for a game of soldiers, I'm ok as I am'.

Women (on the whole) cannot resist advertising and peer pressure...why should men?

Personally, this is not the equality I'm after, I'd rather everyone looked at themselves in the mirror and cared only about their health but it's not going that way, is it?

Traditional m en - that stereotype - do not help with children so a lot of confusion around here.
What LA said is not a problem in its list - a man who works hard and earns well (and woman for that matter) and who does half the childcare at home too with his wife and who doesn't fuss too much about looks (which indeed I don't - it's a waste of valuable time. Sounds like a pretty good list for a decent human being to me of either gender.

I lost all patience with her when I saw her video for 'Hard Out Here' to be honest. She is an awful, awful example to young women.

Yes, that was sad.

And by sad, I mean racist.

Horrifyingly racist and completely inappropriate.

I thought her excuses for it were awful too 'its not something I think about' well you dont have to think about it do you little miss white-and-rich. Awful awful woman

Like some have pointed out, nothing wrong with wanting a man that both contributes to the upkeep of the family and is a proper dad looking after and spending time with the kids. How is this wrong? It must be a perfectly good example for young girls to see that you can and should have a partner that contributes on equal terms.
As to wanting a man who does not spend ages in front of the mirrorr, plucking and preening, well that's her preference. And mine too, I might add. I believe there are other women out there who feels the same. A shave now and then, and regular showers is preferable though :-)
Now, what is this about, everybody wants to shag her dad? I can feel a google-image search coming up.

What has annoyed people is the sexist "men should be men" headline not her personal preference for stubbly men or whatever.

BriarRainbowshimmer: Don't we all sometimes say things that are not completely eloquent, like "men should be men" really means "men should be men the way I define a proper man". She does go on to explain what she means; not too plucked and preened, contributing to the upkeep and spend time with the kids.
I really don't see the problem if her opening statement was not perfectly put, we all do this sometimes, and she does go on to elaborate what she means and thereby reveals that her preference is quite unprovocative.

In fact it's lovely and feminist to assume to be a real man you have to earn and care for children.

LauraBridges: Indeed

surely it is unfeminist to assume men should 'be' anything.

Similar to saying that a woman is only a 'real woman' if she is a mother. Well lots of women are 'real women' and not in the least bit maternal and have no intention of having children.

Some 'real men' like to stay at home with their kids, many more would if we weren't pushing this insistence that to be 'a man' is to work in a paid job.

Fifyfomum: Surely it can´t be unfeminist to have a preference in men, and express this preference? If so, this is getting to theoretical for me

Got me thinking though, I guess some preferences can be considered unfeminist, like if she said she likes the typical bad boy with a jealous streak and tendency towards violence. And this would of course not be a good signal to her young fans. I would say that her preference for what constitutes a "real man" are within the feminist scope of acceptable. However, I do think your referral to whether or not men or women "should be" anything is interesting, and the answer is probably no not really, we should be free to be who we are. But again, when we choose our partners our preferences must be valid as "shoulds". Now using the term "men should be men", well as I mentioned above, I think we are all guilty of sometimes saying something straight out without making all possible disclaimers so as to make sure that all eventualities are covered. And she does go on to describe what she means with a "real man" so I would say all is well and she has not committed any feminist cardinal sin.

Of course it is not unfeminist to have a preference of mate

It is unfeminist to state that the characteristics in a person you don't like in a mate mean they cease to be 'real'

It isn't her preference that is the issue, it is her sweeping generalisations.

Fifyfomum: I really don´t think what she is saying is a sweeping generalisation. I think she is just talking about her own preference. Maybe it would be better for everybody if she said something like "my preference in men are...." or "a real man to me means someone that...." but this is a bit of a stilted way of talking, is it not?.

I think we all the time say things that can mean different things to different people. Completely different example: I could say that I like my steak to be done "just right". For my mum this would mean charcoal, for one of my friends this would mean just wafted above the frying pan as it heats up, for me it means medium to raw. So if I want people to understand what I mean, I would have to explain that I want it medium to raw.

As far as I can see from the quote above, she has said that she wants men to men (i.e. her definition of real men) and then she has explained what she means/her preference. No harm done as far as I can see.