There's a new feminist group at dd's school- hurray. Guess......

[curlew]

.....what they ended up talking about at the first meeting?

Riiiiight.

Well, at least they have answers ready when faced with 'wot about the menz' arguments

Is the discussion dominated by boys? It would be interesting, as a piece of research, for one of them to time the relative amount of time boys and girls spend talking and see how it relates to the numbers of both in the group. It could be a real eye-opener.

Statistically when the numbers of teenagers is approaching 50:50 in a class room girls dominate discussion.

This is one of the many (suspect) reasons some traditionally male private schools attempt to keep the balance of girls at less than 40%

Certainly in my experience of discussing feminism with sixth formers (equal gender split) girls dominate the discussion. Usually arguing both sides of the argument and occasionally throwing in 'what about the menz' themselves.

Really Lottie? Things have changed since my day, then, and also since I was teaching students a few years ago. My experience is that boys dominate disproportionately. Girls are certainly capable of leading the 'whataboutthemen' though.

Do you have links to the research? I would love to see it.

or a reference - I can chase it up if it's not online.

"Statistically when the numbers of teenagers is approaching 50:50 in a class room girls dominate discussion."

Really? When did the change happen? Brilliant if it has!

I also had seen studies and stats on here which said that in mixed groups through school, college and work, men control a disproportionate amoutn of the conversation.

Wasn't there something about a college lecturer who made sure that the female students got as much floor time in a lecture as the males, and afterwards she asked him how they had found the session, and the men said that they didn't like that it had been dominated by women!

If that has changed that's great. Are there any links?

And OP. FFS on your DDs behalf, that's appalling.

Is a mixed group talking about feminism especially at this age going to yield positive results? I imagine a lot of girls might be put off talking about the sort of sexism they are likely to have experienced, at that age, those who have had stuff a lot of it will be around sexual type things. Certainly when I was that age the sexism I had experienced most, and was most angry about was street harassment, groping, being followed, wanked at, that kind of thing.

sorry, sorry, I have read it somewhere, and it does tally with my own experience in the classroom but I can't currently lay my hands on the source.

I notice when girls are in the minority (80% of classes I teach) they are completely overshadowed. But when they are in equal numbers they dominate- but perhaps this is my bias and I subconsciously encourage this?

Lottie in a conversation about feminism I imagine that girls might speak up because the "scene" will be that it is a topic "for them" if you get what I mean, a safe space to talk and they are supposed to and allowed to talk, combined maybe with the fact that many boys don't know much about feminism, won't generally have stories about sexist treatment to add and TBH a fair number of them probably just won't be interested as they won't see it as having any relevance to them.

Also if you are female & have feminist leanings, it is possible that the approach you bring to the classroom means that girls feel more confident in speaking up.

Or maybe you teach at a "good" school where sexism is minimal and all children and their contributions are valued!

It would be interesting to see if things really have changed though, and really positive.

I have read (can't remember where, sorry ) that when women take up around 1/3 of the conversation they are perceived to dominate it.

I agree Tabard. Although the girls do dominate other discussions as well (feminism does come up but it isn't my subject ifyswim), perhaps that's me, the nature of the subject or just the particular cohort I currently teach.

I teach somewhere where boys are a large majority and sexism is a frighteningly real part of school life. But in small groups ( approx 8) with 3-4girls in they do dominate.

Remember there is also the fact that when women talk more than about 30% of the time they are perceived to dominate. I think it's in Deborah Tannen (though that's pretty old now), maybe Cordelia Fine? Greer has written about it too.

The reason I'm interested in this is because I experienced a very stark example of it at university. I went to a book study group which was mostly men and the men did virtually all of the talking. The Chaplain who ran the group decided to do a book on feminism to try to deal with the problem. When we did the feminism book, vastly more women and fewer men came - but the men still dominated.

x posts, Plenty.

I thought that the received wisdom was that any group with more than 30% women was perceived to have a female majority.

Is it conversation as such that the girls dominate, or answering teachers' questions? Basically in that scenario it's girls doing all the work again while boys sit there with their mouths slightly open, thinking lovely beautiful thoughts about football and ink pellets. In an open discussion on a subject that all parties want to talk about I can't imagine girls getting the chance to take the lead.

curlew I feel really sad that your DDs meeting turned out that way.

At that age it might be enough to make some of the girls think fuckit what's the point

Well at any age TBF.

Next week "equality us done so we can all go home and learn to bake and sew"?
I hope not :) sounds as though your dd will speak up if so

Is it conversation as such that the girls dominate, or answering teachers' questions? Basically in that scenario it's girls doing all the work again while boys sit there with their mouths slightly open, thinking lovely beautiful thoughts about football and ink pellets.

Yes, I suspect theres an element of truth in this. It is easier for (some) boys to let the girls do the work.

In an open discussion on a subject that all parties want to talk about I can't imagine girls getting the chance to take the lead.

Thinking about it, I think this is true of my U6 groups but not true of my L6 groups so I'm inclined to think it is cohort dependent.

Yes I would think that the dynamic in different groups would have a huge impact. Also the culture.

It's replicated all through life - work etc. In some organisations there has been a culture of everyone should be listened to respectfully, some not so much. Some have had a macho culture, which is offputting, others have been more inclusive.

It makes me grind my teeth when I see something like (bear with me!) masterchef professionals australia at the mo with marco pierre white. The titles all feature knives, and he wields a knife in a menacing way at opportune moments. He introduced someone they were going to work with as "hard as nails" and both seemed to take a rather military approach to what they were doing.

If you filter out prospective people who are not "hard as nails" and able to cope with military style male aggression, then you lose a lot of contestants. If it was a competition to find australia's best bouncer, then maybe. But this is a cooking competition.

It's that place - school work competition wherever - where you can get these bizarrely macho posturing stuff going on and many women (and some men) are just put right off. And while they might have been shit at putting up with an aggressive man shouting at them, they might have been utterly brilliant chefs.

Rant over

Masterchef used to be very different. Old ladies would win.

That's an excellent point about Masterchef, NiceTabard.

Did you say whether the group was mixed, curlew?

Perhaps a good topic to suggest to the group leader would be the irony of the first meeting turning so quickly to the concerns of men?

Ah well you see Michele roux Jr and Monica are my kind of people. Professional and encouraging, but not taking any shit and expressing when they are disappointed. Along with some genuinely constructive comments, and no bizarre glaring.

And clearly this approach to being cheffy hasn't held them back.

I suppose some people react positively to being "aggressively challenged". But not all. And it seems in some situations / cultures that is the default.

It seems to me maybe there are a lot of cultures where, I guess, what a minority of boys / men respond to is considered the correct approach, even if it alienates all but a small number of people outside that group.

I watch too many food progs, clearly