Porn is violence against women

[Grennie]

I have never been a supporter of porn, but it is only as I have read more feminist blogs and books that I have realised this is true, for the following reasons.

1. Porn always objectifies women
2. Most porn nowdays features men being violent to women as part of sex
3. Porn gives out the message that women enjoy all kinds of degrading sex acts
4. Porn teaches boys and girls unrealistic ideas of female sexuality

Thus porn has a negative impact on all women, whether you ever watch it or not.

Yes.

/agree

Yes. The violence and degradation part is the most worrying part for me - I hate it.

I hate that young people are beginning to think that this is what sex is a series of male-centric physical sex acts - no emotional connection at all.

Yes. Dworkin describes porn as hate speech against girls and women.

Agree.
I'm so sorry to see the slide in this kind of consciousness since the eighties (when I were a lad, I mean young woman) to what we have now. Or rather what we have been putting up with until this recent third wave of feminism.

1: Even gay porn? Even fem-dom porn? Even for-women porn?

2: I watch a lot of porn. 'Most' is not just a stretch, it's downright inaccurate. How much do you watch?

3: Most of the 'degrading' sexual acts I have committed have been at the instigation of my female lovers. They've usually been more extreme than I am! With one exception they had not seen porn before. With no exceptions I was the first person who they shared a BDSM experience with.

4: 80's montages teach an unrealistic expectation of working to a goal... if you have a tendency to mistake fantasy for reality.

But I can understand where your arguments come from and it is fine for people to disagree in society and seek to change it through peaceful means. As no as no-one is talking about censorship (or forcing people to participate in porn!)

'shocking footage of women abused on the pron set'
Neofaust Just a guess but I would say, that a lot of the abuse doesn't get to go in the actual porn video. Or maybe i'm naive and it does.

It's an awful video, from starting off with just pushing grabbing and moving her about like she's an inanimate object, to actually getting off and continuing when she's crying in pain.

It's fucking disgusting. I wish karma on them, a big dry dildo rammed up their arse.

I read somewhere that there is actually a doctor hired by/ or works in the porn industry, whose specific job is to sew up anal tears. If that's not fucked up, I don't know what is.

All gay male porn will tell us is whether men act in a different way to male sexual partners, as opposed to female ones. And I don't think feminists care (in the nicest possible way). It isn't their fight. Whether the levels of violence and degradation are the same or whether they are different doesn't matter in this context.

Of course nobody should be exploited - women or men. And gay porn should not exist. But because we live under patriarchy, it is different to porn with women in it.

There is I think no such thing as feminist porn under patriarchy,

And let's pretend there was. It is such a tiny tiny fraction of porn that it has no impact at all on the overall porn industry.

Actually Grennie, I'd disagree. 'Feminist' porn is gradually crippling the industry.

My definition of feminist porn (which will naturally be disputed, but here's just my opinion) is the kind made by women without engaging with the industry at all. A lot of cam-girls (yes, they often have to join larger sites, but with nowhere near the contractual obligations) make money in this fashion; Who is exploiting them?

And of course there is the porn made by cheerfully exhibitionist couples (I've known a few couples where the woman was primary instigator!).

Both of these are causing huge problems for the industry because they are made free and broadcast free. The demand for them is growing; it's just hard to quantify because it's so non-commercial and mostly expanding through online communities rather than broadcast sites.

I suspect that as more women abandon the internalised patriarchal 'women are victims of sex' attitude and embrace the freedoms they've been denied for so long this factor is going to only become more prominent. In the same way as big budget porn was edged out by gonzo, gonzo is being gradually eliminated by crowd sourced erotica.

enlightenmequick I have seen some absolutely horrific porn. I have also seen the watermark that confirms that a law enforcement agency has also seen the porn and checked to ensure full compliance and no basis for illegality. I have no doubt that there are instances of genuine exploitation in pornography and due to the sexual nature of the industry it is a worse event than it might be in any other job. But these are specific instances of violence, rather than situations endemic to the industry; They are investigated and if prosecution is warranted then directors, producers and actors have been imprisoned. The reason so few instances of this type are reported is that there are so few of them; the commercial porn industry is, quite rightly, under huge and constant scrutiny.

The situation is not ideal; but I'm not prepared to support the statement 'all porn is violence against women' when not all porn features women, not all porn features violence and some of the porn that does the women are not just consenting but actually enthusiastic (yes, I know, many are simply playing a role, but I have met enough women IRL who enjoy rough aggressive sex to be certain it's not all of them).

Hey Neo - tell you what, off you go and participate in a porn film and then come back and tell us how enthusiastic you are about it. Please ensure that you are sodomised by at least three or four men, give BJs to others until your jaw aches, your throat hurts and you physically can't swallow anymore. Perhaps you should ensure that you're in some form of bondage or held down with no code word to ensure that you're safe. Remember that it's okay as you'll be paid but please ensure that you remember to smile or look enthusiastic otherwise you won't be paid. Remember not to use a condom and please don't ask others to do so. Make sure that you wear easy to take off clothes as the audition process is only concerned with your attributes from the neck down and the producer might want to sample the goods. Don't piss off the security on the set or try to have a conversation of any meaning with anyone. And make sure that you get a copy of the footage to send on to your proud parents or perhaps your kids someday. You might also want to post it on the internet to ensure that anyone can see it and comment on how realistic or otherwise your performance was.

Finally, you might want to make sure that you have access to medical facilities to deal with the tears and other internal injuries that you've suffered in your enthusiasm for rough aggressive sex. Oh and remember the STI check up because you don't want your fun job to result in infection or infertility.

Once you've done that why don't you come back and let us know just how good it was for you and how empowered you were feeling during it. Obviously you'll be keen to report as you won't be feeling used and abused, you won't be physically hurt, nor will you be scared or embarrassed or suffering from any long term psychological effects. Oooh and make sure you spend your fantastic earnings on something good.

Or how about you just stop making excuses for your sick habits.

If you have watched the video posted by Enlightenmequick and have been able to post the tripe you have, then you are a living embodiment of why porn is wrong. You see violence against women and their sexual degradation as 'not ideal'. I suppose that's something.

Have you ever wondered why the women unlucky enough to end up in a relationship with you have 'wanted' the kind of sex you watch in your porn?

You say you don't like censorship, but censorship exists even within the porn industry, do you seriously want censorship to end?

I never cease to be disgusted at porn advocates coming into a female space and telling women that they're wrong for not wanting to have other women degraded sexually for their wanking pleasure. Porn is violence against women. No matter how you want to sugar coat that for yourself (presumably even a regular porn user still has human feelings) that is what it is.

And what Blistory said x1000

NeoFaust, we really don't want or need details of your sex life/partners. It's not remotely relevant to porn. What happens in a private bedroom between consenting adults has no bearing on a multi-million dollar business that exploits and degrades women. Often very young, vulnerable women who live to regret it.

NeoFaust, yes I suspect a fair few women have been culturally and socially conditioned to enjoy rough aggressive sex. I wonder what the cultural influences are? I mean, it doesn't seem obvious that the subordinated class would assume the role of submissive...or does it?

SOME porn is violent, towards women, others not... what about amateur that couples put online? And not all the studio stuff is violent and nasty like that disgusting clip posted above either. You can't generalise and speak for every porn actress.

Excellent posts Blistory and CaptC

I also agree with Mini and see the problem with porn as 3 fold.

First it affects the women appearing in the films as Blistory detailed.

Secondly it affects women as a class by perpetuating objectification and standards of behaviour and appearance that seep into everyday life i.i. porn culture.

Thirdly it affects the sex lives and relationships of individuals. Porn addiction and escalation of niche interests (possibly leading to users seeking out illegal material) are growing problems and ruin lives. It can also skew your desires or encourage you to do things you think you 'should' do, rather than want to do. And 9 times out of 10 that will be women going along with what the man wants because he's seen in porn and 'the women on there love it so shut up and do it'.

KerryKatonasKhakis, Yes, I am inclined to believe that pornography very powerfully shapes the subject and their own sense of who they are. Althusser identified how the ideological state apparatus of church, family, institutions, legal system and education system instil the ideology of the state (patriarchal and capitalist state) which upholds the class interests of those with the greatest social power (male/patriarchal and capitalist). There are no individuals just subjects who's opinions, behaviours and desires are shaped by ideology. To Althusser's list of ideological apparatus I would add pornography, a very powerful vehicle of ideological and cultural hegemony that ensures that women remain the subjugated and submissive class. Pornography hurts all women.

Neofaust

I've read some utter bullshit on here, but i think your post takes the

Where to start.

1. Your talking like a lot of men do, ie, telling women what their experiences really are. You've seen a kitemark, so it can't be endemic???? OMG. Are you 17? The law of California is that male pornstars must use a condom. How many condoms do you see in porn? They are openly flouting the law and nothing gets done, do you really think that having a kitemark means anything?

1. Take a look at the website i linked. Click on 'Pornstars' There is pornstars confessions, a brief paragraph of each person's experience of porn, or if you want to read their more in depth stories, click on ex pornstars stories. There are 10 pornstars per page, and 6 pages, so that is 60 pornstars who disagree with your little synopsis.

1. Have a look at cognitive dissonance I think you are having trouble with it.

The OP is hardly a new or controversial viewpoint within feminism. Is this some kind of reverse trolling? Or just a vigorous agreement exercise?

Pornography as an industry in my view has a net negative effect, because the suffering of some will always outweigh the enjoyment of others. Even if it's a minority of participants, when it's nasty it's very nasty.

Not sure where feminism places the amateur stuff. There seems to be some people who are happy to upload images of themselves for others to get off on. For those doing this purely for the pleasure of themselves and others, I guess that's not the same issue, unless we think that these people should not express their sexuality in this way.

There will always be an element of society who will have a "need" for extreme pron and I doubt there is very little we can do about those people. their requirement for degradation will be met in any way they can. Porn or not.

However the insidious nature of low grade porn is also damaging. I see this as a gateway drug - a starting point. people start off watching this stuff as a giggle but quickly become desensitised.

Those who had no interest may never watch porn again - but many (and I believe this means many men, in particular) move on to more hard core porn. In their search they come across all sorts which they may never have thought would turn them on - but they can't "unsee" it. the damage is done. Remember these are often teenage boys with no other understanding of sexual relationships.

I have found it impossible to sleep with my husband after seeing something i wish i hadn't (and this was on mainstream TV). it affected me for days and still does. How these images don't affect the watchers (even accidental watchers) is incomprehensible.

It is a similar argument to drugs, what does. Some who see pot as leading to other, more damaging substances. For some people it does, and other it doesn't. I imagine porn usage is much the same - some never do, some dabble, some get sucked in. The key thin for me though is the word 'industry'. Industries of any colour tend to pursue profit, regardless of the effect on people and environment. Porn is no different.

As an aside, as a child of the 70's I grew up with the burgeoning home video industry. We could get hold of some pretty nasty slash horror films. I never felt that seeing this in my teens desensitised me to the horrific stuff we see on the news, but in that case there is a clear demarcation between a fact and fiction. Porn seems far more blurry between fantasy and reality.