"Cues" to give people to show them I'm not to be ignored!

[benid]

I didnt want to derail the thread about the work conference but I was Interested in what dusk said about "cues" to give out to avoid being overlooked/ignored.. Did you mean physical or verbal cues and do you have any effective ones you'd recommend? I have a small work function coming up where I'll be the only woman present. I tend to switch off/tune out from the desperate boring golf chat on these occasions, but it would certainly help my 'profile' if I engaged more. I do have stuff to say and can chat to the Menz confidently one-to-one but get bypassed in dinner-table chat iykwim. Any advice to help me advance the cause of women in my organisation by helping me to take a bigger part in the function ?

ha ha maybe but I wouldn't gain any time as I need to be at my desk to do the things I wish I was doing instead!

I got trapped on a train this week with someone who started ordering me to put a weekly meeting in with her. She didn't grasp at all that she can't tell me what to do with my time. She is a colleague, technically junior in fact, but so used to ordering people around that she didn't grasp that she can't tell me what to do, she got quite shirty and I was a bit upset inside as I really struggle with bossy people (I have a very bossy big sister and expect massive ructions when I get assertive, it makes me very wobbly)

I drink a cup of coffee and then walk them out of the room on the pretext of going to the kitchen to wash the mug. That way you get rid of visitors and you have a clean cup. Win-win situation.

Sometimes I leave a folder on my desk and open it to indicate I've got other things to do.

But I don't have very persistent visitors so these tactics might not work with them ...

I have a boss who used to say "I have a call starting in 5 minutes, can we fit this in that gap or should we schedule a time later?". Worked a treat. At 5 minutes he could legitimately cut them off (and probably phone the speaking clock or something!) or they had to admit that they were after a long chunk of time and book it in properly.

I think it helps almost to take ownership of a conversation. "Oh, X, do you know Y..." It might not be your event or your place to introduce but it helps establish your seniority. Take the opportunity of a boring golf chat to say "Oh it's interesting you mention the golf course in Marbella - did anyone see that terribly interesting piece in XYZ journal about...something vaguely connected with golf but not really"

In other words, don't be afraid to command the conversation and take it off to somewhere you think is interesting. If you think it is, and you are interesting, they will be interested. And of course, people men are always interested in talking about themselves but you can get them away from their boring topic and onto one that's more relevant to you by asking them about their experience of XYZ and subtly you've also orchestrated the conversation which puts you in a position of power.

Also, this is through learned experience - at a conference, never, ever stand near the badges. Every man will come up to you to ask where the toilets are.

And Dusk - how much say do you have over these people's appraisals? We had an issue with people talking down the company (which is basically what your people are doing - undermining the corporate for the sake of the immediate or the personal relationship) and we made an attribute for the appraisal against which each person could be judged. "Willingness to uphold company policy and ethos" which would in this case include not arguing the individual case every time but accepting sometimes another person's decision stands. I absolutely don't think you should spend all this time listening and letting people vent - you are being far too kind about this and they are basically abusing your kindness and your patience. What you really mean is "You don't like it - tough" but you're saying, implicitly "I would love to know how you feel about this". I think there need to be some conversation closers that you get comfortable with - "Yes I understand your frustration but this is the position and we need to get on with things from here". I've also done company-wide presentations about this kind of thing and making it clear that needs to stop - making a presentation in front of senior people so they buy-in, just be being there, means your message is heard more effectively than if you tell people one on one.

Quangle thankyou for all that great stuff.
Really pertinent because it's about a whole culture, not the individual conversations, which are too numerous and too short for individual ad hoc techniques to work much in terms of net benefit in time

AGH!

This has come to a head: someone has just flounced off telling I am being ridiculous.
I was getting coffee; she came and hovered in the kitchen while I dealt with another issue that someone else had followed me in there to ask me about (nicely); she then brought up something that I have dealt with explicitly and said no to (with back up from head of legal, in this case) with very good reason. I explained this, and was trying to get away, and she started hedging and mithering: "but it won't even be seen by nearly everyone... but .... but...." and I got impatient after a little while of putting my arguments across, I said "why even ask me? You asked my opinion but you want to do it anyway. I can't sign it off, and I can't have an argument about every single thing". She flounced, saying, "this isn't an argument! You're being ridiculous!" and now I feel on the back foot for saying what I really needed to say (and tried to say, but wrongly used the inflammatory word "argument", which means a discussion from opposing views to me, but to her probably means a heated disagreement) and can never say what I actually need to say which is: you work here, with me, and you need to support your colleagues.

She seems to have no idea of my work load and how trivially unnecessary it is to make everything into a discussion. She deals with a far smaller client base than me, has time to butter them all up individually, and it is part of her job really, and I think she should own that - it's part of her job to make them feel ok about our decisions, not to go into battle to get every one overturned.

I am fuming! Please tell me wise things

Eye contact.
Don't burble, but if the conversations boring, don't play with your phone, but try and change it.
Be like an ice maiden if the chat turns risqué. I think groups of men will often test the water like this. Don't pretend you didn't hear but hold their gaze and say, ' back to the 21st century...'

You sound perfectly reasonable to use the word argument there I think! It sounds more like she didn't like being told no and not being able to 'talk you round' than that you did anything wrong.

I would just prepare a short response for when she inevitably returns: "I have explained why this is not possible. [Insert name of head of legal] agrees with that analysis. I'm sorry, but I'm too busy to keep going round in circles on this. I can understand why you want to do it, but the answer is still no and discussing it more isn't going to change that."

Thanks Penguins.
I think I am being a bit insensitive here because a. she is keen to be conciliatory to the client because of delays that are her fault and an implicit previous approval by silence, also her fault; and b. she has recently been demoted, everyone who was on her team is now away on a work trip she didn't get invited on which is exactly the sort of thing she used to do. So - these things are why she is being ratty.

I still need to say (and have no idea how to) that I need her to think more analytically, more critically, about everything the clients bring her as a problem that can be solved be me being persuaded to overrule myself. Sometimes it is a "problem" of their own making that could be solved by a few people doing their jobs properly in the first place.

Can I say something a bit brutal?

IME one of the issues women have more commonly than men as they get more senior is thinking too much about other people's feelings and trying to always get them to behave by consensus and understanding. On average, men seem to have less problem sometimes laying down the law and not worrying what the other person thinks of them.

Sometimes you just have to say "X is a problem and I need you to fix it." and if it means that the person bitches about you for a few days, well actually that is ok.

Is it possibly one of those scenarios? If she has recently been demoted, presumably you aren't the only one who has had 'issues' with her.

The demotion is after a restructure by new management who basically want to turn us into a different kind of company. The way I see this change (as I would, seeing it all from the POV of my role) is that we need to be more strategic, more big-picture, leaving less room to please everybody that we have traditionally always bent over backwards for.
I see this change as one that benefits my skills (analytic) more than hers (relationship-building on a personal scale) and it's like a shift in the tension between our diverging modi operandi: in the past, our (previous) big bosses would often have taken the view that my dept needs to get back in its box to enable her dept to say yes to everyone; now I feel that there is a shift towards my dept needing to be empowered to make some big tough decisions that will gain us greater long term credibility.

So no, it's not that anyone has a problem with her, more that we are now a more strategic operation and she has never shown any inclination to be strategic.

So I have a lot to prove - I could potentially get the chance to built my dept if I can show that I "get it" (otherwise, likely, someone will be brought in over me as happened to her)

This is how I see it anyway. No one has sat me down and given me objectives or anything (I wish). So I guess you are right - this is a deep tension between her zone and my zone and she is a bad place at the moment with respect to that tension - and I have to forget about that and get the hell on with it

Thanks for letting me talk about all this!

Thanks Buffy, that is great, feeling much calmer now.
Tons to do which helps... you just plough on, don't you, no time to dwell on small things (which was the whole thing in the first place, but there you go)

Dusk it seems like you are being pulled into hundreds of mini-battles with different people, which must be draining.

Would it be possible instead to grab the bull by the horns and take a positive step to avoid this? I'm thinking something like a group meeting or email (including relevant senior people for backup) where you can raise the "issue" that you are having to spend lots of your time justifying the same decisions to different people, and suggest some alternative scenarios (which would work better for you!) - whether that's something like you sending a brief email to everyone summarizing reasons for a decision (to save multiple people coming to you about it separately), or them asking someone else instead, or whatever you think would work. It would need a bit of time spent on thinking it through and actually doing it, but could save a lot more time and hassle later.

It also strikes me that the people coming to you are expecting you to do a lot of listening to and empathising with them, but are not doing much of that with you. If that is the way they work, perhaps you could use this back at them - "I'm sure you will understand my position" sort of thing, mentioning your workload, how it makes you feel to have every decision questioned 6 times by different people, etc. Basically complain over the top of their complaining Do you think that might work with them?

Lastly it seems as though you are waiting/hoping for someone to give you some strategy guidance from above, but they are not doing this. So again, rather than waiting for them to engage you, can you grab them? Ask for an hour with your boss to "ensure you are clear on the new strategy and objectives", note down lots of quotes to bounce back at your questioners, and get them aligned with your view - "So if I've understood it right, our/my strategy/priorities should be to do XYZ - would you agree with that?". And it IS actually OK to raise the issue with them and directly ask for backup too, if you feel that's needed.

I may be talking rubbish though Got some work problems of my own atm (which I can't really share here though), so am definitely not an expert...

Thank you for all those good ideas, MyNameIs.

The person who got cross with me is off sick today. I think she is in a generally bad place and I should have shrugged her silliness off the second it happened. I think I am over-reacting to this (not visibly at work, I mean my own emotional response to this) out of all proportion because, well Baggage.

I can do this! Thank you everyone.
It really helps to be able to talk about all this stuff.

Try to have a little bit of physical presence, too.

Too often I see women in the corners, moving out of 'the way' all the time for others, standing slightly out of groups, standing in the less 'good' areas, taking up less space.

It's about your frame of mind and how you project yourself. I try to imagine myself as physically bigger than I really am - so I need a bit more space, I am a solid presence, it's natural for people to get out my way sometimes, (not saying become a rude boor), I get the good spots. Standing up straight, not fiddling with stuff, not carrying coat/handbags, shoulders back, eye contact, not letting yourself be squeezed out of your space when others join the group.

Oh yes good one kentish!

That was something I found really depressing on the blog link someone posted here a while back, think it was called something like "Men taking up too much space on the train" (sorry, can't remember details/link just now).

The attitude of the men in the pictures was obviously depressing, but what I also found very eye-opening was when I started specifically looking for the women in the pictures. Almost without exception, they were all sitting in this incredibly tidy way, knees and feet together, elbows in or arms in front of them, bags on laps or under feet, as though taking up the minimum of space they possibly could and practically trying to be invisible - whether there was actually someone next to them or not. Really made me think about how women have learned to be, compared to men.