"Cues" to give people to show them I'm not to be ignored!

[benid]

I didnt want to derail the thread about the work conference but I was Interested in what dusk said about "cues" to give out to avoid being overlooked/ignored.. Did you mean physical or verbal cues and do you have any effective ones you'd recommend? I have a small work function coming up where I'll be the only woman present. I tend to switch off/tune out from the desperate boring golf chat on these occasions, but it would certainly help my 'profile' if I engaged more. I do have stuff to say and can chat to the Menz confidently one-to-one but get bypassed in dinner-table chat iykwim. Any advice to help me advance the cause of women in my organisation by helping me to take a bigger part in the function ?

Don't think it is inappropriate, no.

Yes, I do "see these swirling currents" (not that I am saying I always see everything perfectly of course, but I am hyper aware of that it is there).

But I see, or care, too much. I can be in situations with my sister (for instance), know that she is pissing someone off, know that she can't see it and is going to keep on doing what she's doing and probably get what she came here for in the end. I get far too easily put off my stroke by knowing that the topic I just raised is making someone uncomfortable, for instance.

I don't think you have to be AS to be less keenly aware than I am, but I am not sure that being as sensitive as me does me any good.

It makes me a very good host though! I know exactly what tiny moment of hesitation before the answer to "would you like a cup of tea?" means "actually I would prefer coffee or beer but I don't know you well enough to ask". for instance

my number 1 technique is to not worry if you get something wrong or if someone else is negative towards you in a meeting.

don't take it on board and try to bring it back round to whatever you want to talk about.

I learnt this by watching a very good salesman and seeing how after seemingly lost a discussion was able to come out on top.

I think it is particularly important for women to learn to overcome this type of hurdle because we are judged more harshly and sometimes 'put in our place' particularly in traditionally male industries.

I tend to be the most important or valuable person in the room (or so I think!) nowadays so don't get taken for the tea lady and get swamped with people at conferences wanting to grab me in breaks or sit next to me which totally changes the dynamic from some of the experiences on the thread (experiences I remember from when I was much younger).

Loads of good tips above. Also never fiddle with your hair or touch it - there are videos on the impact of that. Look people in the eye. I have to be very careful not to take over and dominate conversations and not interrupt others (I suspect I am the opposite of some people on this thread but it just comes with experience).

Whether you're male or female though ask others about you about themselves - everyone likes to talk about themselves. Ask questions of someone who isn't saying very much. All this is just common politeness and gender neutral and I try to do it. Try to find things in common with whoever you are with and talk about that.

I wear a bright jacket these days as I am often the centre of attention, public speaking etc so I will stand out from most people and all the men and all the women in black.

If anyone at a dinner party is not talking to you and they are next to you they are a very rude person.

yep that's a good one. My job involves saying "no" to people a lot and a fair amount of time, the outraged and disappointed response of the other person (man) is to try to discredit me, the grounds I have to tell him what he can and can't do etc (er, it's in that contract you signed. I am not allowed to just say this, of course, because I have to be all conciliatory however much of a cunt the other guy is being)

Anyway if you keep your cool and don't let on it's getting to you, you do much better than if you actually respond to all the spurious at your competence

(Usually, whether or not I outwardly manage this, I feel horrible after the meeting though and it goes round and round and round in my head and I had a nervous breakdown about this sort of issue about a year and a half ago and I can feel all the same feelings coming back)

(I used to think I was just a wuss but I have been going to meetings with men now, new senior men that I have as colleagues, and I can see it happens much more to me than to them. there is a particular sort of man who will respond very aggressively to women saying things he doesn't like. and it is really, really pissing me off because it is now wearing me down personally)

spurious digs at your competence

Great idea for a thread OP, I'm a fairly confident public speaker but an absolutely rubbish mingler/networker.

My only tips are clothing related. One is to wear (comfortable) heels to any kind of professional event. I'm only 5'3" and I feel better when I'm not loads shorter than everyone. The other one is to wear a cross body hand bag so you have your hands free for gesticulating/holding a plate etc. Shoulder handbags get annoying when you are standing around for ages.

Off to read the whole thread now to get tips!

I wear a bright jacket these days yes - I used to dress in a very plain suit as I prefer plain dark colours, but now I wear expensive looking bright coloured dresses (always bought in the sales).

I wear a little make up so I feel professional but I don't want to feel 'prettified' I want to feel more 'good enough as I am'.

also jewellery - I think a necklace = a tie.

Hello again just checking the thread again as the event starts in 45 mins! There was a technical meeting this afternoon which was connected- I feel ok in that situation as subject knowledge gives me confidence & credibility. However the social meeting now with all men is the bit I'm not looking forward to. My plan is get through it without saying sorry or being self-deprecating. Or doing that stupid passive half-smile when others are speaking!! I think that's enough of a challenge for me at this stage butwill keep revisiting these tips for ongoing use!
O and heels would have been a good idea! I'm tiny and found myself literally looking up to someone whilst having tea/coffee before the tech meeting -agh. Note to self- stand opposite /away from that person so I have a better angle to look him in the eye! Anyway off to the event I go! Have a lovely evening all

Good
Luck.

(Channel Sheryl Sandberg )

I've seen this book on assertiveness for women recommended a lot:
www.amazon.co.uk/Woman-Your-Own-Right-Assertiveness/dp/0704334208

I've not read it but this thread reminded me of it so I've ordered it for 1p (& p&p!).

Here's something I really need to learn to be assertive about - related to a lot of the moans I have already put on this thread.

I need to learn how to close arguments down because I am wasting a lot of time discussing stuff I can't change. My work load is vast and I am not sure it is even possible. I am always working, never get my head above water. There is a certain kind of frustrating conversation I am always having, at the moment, and wasting time on, which is where someone is moaning about the decision I have made, and I have to justify it. This happens internally and externally.

this is not the same as someone negotiating a better compromise. I am open to that. this is when it is something that patently can't change (at least it is obvious to me) and yet I have to invest tons of time letting them fucking emote about it, letting them feel heard, and yet they never fucking listen properly to me, and at the same time a million other pieces of work are flowing in and I can feel them mounting up.

Sometimes they are really horrible to me - the aggressive people mentioned above who take out their frustration by suggesting I am incompetent. Often they aren't horrible, just very boring and time consuming. I am stressed as fuck about the amount of work I have to do and this is a massive stressor right now.

I have learnt, over the years, a variety of ways to respond to this sort of thing in ways that defuse aggression, but don't result in me backing down, and they involve doing a lot of listening and talking and research and making creative suggestions. I just don't have time for any of it any more. I need a way to close these conversations down just as politely, but in less time. I think it may be impossible.

Medium term, I think I need to get more client-facing colleagues advocating for my decisions. What happens currently is, an external person moans to me, I repeat why I had to make that decision, they go off and moan about me to a colleague, who comes back to me and does their moaning for them, at me, and I have to repeat it all again. I want to get to the point where my colleagues will ask them what I said, and if it makes sense reinforce it, and only come to me if it sounds like I am on drugs. Instead I just keep having repeated battles, internally and externally, always having to be really nice about the fact that what I can't help feel lies behind this, is that none of them really agree with the fact that my job exists. None of them wants someone to be allowed to make the comments that I have to make.

It really fucking bugs me with one colleague in in particular that every time I explain why I made the decision I made, she looks surprised and deflated at the sanity and necessity of it, and she should know me better by now. It is obvious by her reaction that she has allowed herself to massively over-identify with the client, who has lashed himself into a fury, and has forgotten - every time - that I don't make annoying decisions just for the sake of it.

sorry, that was far far too long. I am ill and stressed. The nub of it is: how can I close things down faster and how can I stop having repetitive pointless conversations about things?

Can you keep a record of the time these take over a week, call your team together, point out much of your joint time is spent and ask if you can address all their concerns there and then, once and for all? They may not know they are all doing it. Can they support each other on responding to the client if they need back up, rather than coming to you?

Thanks for reading all that!
The problem is, it can't all be addressed internally "there and then" because my job is making lots of case by case decisions. So I could ask them in principle to consider having the conversation with the client from the starting point that I might, erm, be right, but -

the trouble is, without wanting to blow my own trumpet, I am a kind of expert, this stuff gets sent to me as opposed to them because I have experience in it. So I can't ask them to analyse each case as if they were me, because they don't know how to do this kind of analysis. Nor would it be reasonable to say "when your client has an issue, just automatically back me up, without understanding it".

However, I do kind of want to ask them to start from the point of view that their job is to understand and reinforce our corporate right and duty to make these decisions, including the ones that are "no", as opposed to the feeling I get sometimes that they think their job is to make the client feel good including overturning my decisions where possible. I have no idea how to put that in a way that is not critical, because I am actually quite critical of a lot of their unthinking, sociable way of doing business

Also - another one I can't do briskly without making it sound critical - is "this conversation is your job, not my job" (about another whole thing - people wanting me to work on stuff I am not allowed to yet, pre-contract, but I don't do the contracts, can't speed them up, can't do anything about it, and I am ALWAYS getting dragged into POINTLESS conversations about where the contract is and when it will be ready, which I KNOW nothing about, yet everyone wants to tell me why the client is so very anxious about losing time, BUT I CAN'T HELP ON THIS ISSUE)

sorry I am venting again

Buffy thanks, x-posted.

Broken record is a good idea for contracts. I will just start smiling and saying "I'm afraid I can't help with contractual issues" and stop trying to explain why, or being sympathetic about how terrible it all is that the contract is delayed. Stop getting dragged into all this shit.

there is far too much heat in all this at the moment because a lot of people are very frustrated, for a lot of reasons. Some of them are my fault, in a sense - because my workload is insane and I am taking too long to get to them. But the heat isn't helping, it is just making everything take longer, because it makes people desperate to have long, emotional conversations and I WANT TO STOP HAVING THEM AND DO MY JOB

Thanks, Buffy
will try all this!

Do not apologise. Never start any sentence by saying "I'm sorry but...." Men never ever do this, women do regularly. I've seen women in meetings put a hand up or raise a finger and wait to be allowed to speak. Never seen a man do that either.

So- managed to get through the eve without saying "sorry but" or being self-deprecating. As it turned out the room where the dinner was held was noisy and so it ended up being a situation where people talked one-to-one with whoever was next to them - a situation I'm already comfortable with. I did feel like I held my own in the bar beforehand though.

HOWEVER. At the end of the evening, the first chap to leave went round the table shaking hands with all the other men.. and then KISSED ME ON THE CHEEK. ARGH. It happened so fast I couldn't take evasive action and just went with it. Horrendous. (Couldn't make a scene as the people at the dinner were important to the company).

So I spent the next 10 mins sitting thinking - "how do I get out of here without being kissed again?". Didn't manage it. The chap sitting next to me also did the same - I couldn't get past him without it happening. I pretty much legged it then and just raised my hand in farewell to all the rest as didn't want to run the risk of trying to shake their hands. Drove home absolutely RAGING.

I've come into work today and spoken to my bosses about it (they are all men and were there) . I wanted to make it clear how I had felt utterly belittled and diminished by the action. FFS I was supposed to be there as an equal and at the end of the evening was utterly patronised like a child. There was nothing sleazy or sexual in the 2 men's actions but just a train of thought that men have handshakes like equals and women have kisses because... ?? who knows why?

Anyway I have been pleased by their reaction. They've asked if I want it taking any further (I don't, as it would cause an issue with an important working relationship for the company) and have validated my feelings about it. Not that I need their validation but it is good to know the people I work for see that this is an issue. I have urged them never ever to do this in a business setting and 2/3 say they never would. One says he does it with certain business contacts who are ok with it. I've told him I think that is totally inappropriate too but I guess that's for his business contacts to decide..

No longer spitting feathers. And next time I will be prepared to speak up loudly and say "just a handshake will do, thanks" if it happens again. Wish I'd thought of that at the time but I honestly never expected to be in that position!

Rant over. I may go to the PUB now.

PS Thankyou for all the advice which is all stored away and saved up. Hope you are all managing to take on board the bits that are useful to you.
GRAHHHHH

"how do I get out of here without being kissed again?"

put your hand out first, with your hand quite far away from your body. I think it signals Keep Your Distance

Yy to hand out.

TBH, this varies for me by industry the client is in. - media, always happens; financial services - not so much. Women also double kiss me in media too.

Bad luck, how awkward! I second the proactively-proffered-hand. Don't forget that men aren't always totally sure of correct social convention so were all probably just trying to do the right thing and a little guidance may have been appreciated. In business I've found it does pay to practice what we preach: they are people first, men second. Oh, and while it's good to have a thick skin, always challenge sexism if you can, it can help to do it mano a womano though.

I have tried the sticking-out-hand thing and been kissed anyway. Everyone kisses in my industry and I don't like it, it is part of the thing where people place a lot of emphasis on "relationship building" rather than "just getting things right so you don't need to manipulate people in order to get contracts".

Once I actually placed a chair between me and the person and stuck my hand out over it to say goodbye. He moved it aside in order to get to me and kiss me.

Still, Benid, sounds like you are doing really well! Well done.

thanks Buffy for the "everyone doesn't have to like you" stuff.

On a slightly related, but still worky note - one of our new grand hires is a man with children, who works set hours to be with them morning and evening. WOO!