DH believes women have equality and feminism is no longer needed

[Kirk1]

He also doesn't believe in "The Patriarchy" or that we have a problem with a rape culture.

We have recurring discussions, which always end up going round in the same stupid circles. I need new information and arguements to break the circle if(when) the conversation is resumed... So, who can help me?

Can we start with the Patriarchy question, because I always get bogged down with that one because he flat out refuses to acknowledge it unless I can give better examples than I can bring to mind at stupid-o-clock when we always appear to resume the discussion.

I know we've moved on from the devil's advocate thing slightly, but I'm just taking the time to follow links from the thread now and wanted to say, thanks to TerrariaMum.

I really like this comment from the Shakesville one;

"I have a lot of feelings about devil's advocate bullshit. It's so cowardly - a way of expressing an unpopular, so-called "politically incorrect" position without really owning it; arguing for something that you know deep down is some bigoted, mean-spirited nonsense but which you also kind of believe without admitting you believe it. And somehow simultaneously you manage to make yourself look brave for taking on the "unpopular" belief, for "daring" to say those things, as well as positioning yourself as some kind of masterfully rational, objective debater who's obviously superior because they can argue both sides of the debate. "Oh, but I'm just trying to HELP you refine your argument! I don't REALLY believe those things! I've just decided to appoint myself your debate coach and professor because obviously that is my right as a Rational Being!"

How nice for you that you can approach misogyny, racism, xenophobia, homophobia, etc. with such detachment. How nice for you that you can deal with those things as if they don't affect your day to day reality, as if they don't hurt you in real, tangible, painful ways, as if they aren't personal. The rest of us cannot be objective or detached because it is personal and it does hurt, and you have the temerity to suggest that this makes our arguments weaker and means you can patronize and dismiss us. Fuck that shit."

In response to my comment, someone else pointed out that you rarely see it happening the other way around - the marginalized person "playing devil's advocate" with the privileged person. Which, yeah, that really ought to give the devil's advocates of the world pause. It's just such a deeply dishonest way of engaging with another person and their experiences.

Thanks for the interesting thread everyone. My poor DH is browbeaten well versed in the politics of feminism. It's my father that I need to step away from. We love to debate stuff but he's pig ignorant of 'womens issues'. It's very frustrating so I can totally understand your point of view OP. By arguing back with you, even just as part of a fun discussion, is denying reality. WTF is that about? With my father, i'm sure it is about protecting male privilege. It sounds like your DH is coming to terms with his. It's not an easy thing to do actually. I think I went through some similar kind of denial/resistance then epiphany about sexism myself!

Shit, I hope I haven't killed the good thread by commenting about how I like it! Facepalm.

Beachcomber Thanks for resisting the urge to be sarcastic ;) I was forgetting the basic problem that to have a debate (or discussion, perhaps we do mean different things) that you first have to be listened to. You are right, of course that the stamping your feet and saying "it's not fair" is necessary. I just meant that it is pointless only doing that. At some point you have to say WHAT isn't fair, WHY it's not fair and HERE is what I want you to do about it.

Remember that I'm still struggling with this myself, I have only really woken up to the fact that there is still work to do in the last couple of years, so if I say stupid things it's because I'm still in the mindset I was given as a good little christian girl(tm) all packaged up to be a good wife and mother. I'm hoping to learn enough to keep DD from ending up the same way!

Thanks for not taking the fact that I mentioned a short lived urge to be sarcastic, the wrong way ;)
I didn't mean it rudely or as unfriendly and I'm glad I didn't post a sarky reply because it probably wouldn't have been very fair. I can see that you are being sincere and it isn't very helpful to reply with sarcasm.

I really hope you read up (and post here) on the issues that you are interested in, and I repeat my suggestion that it is more fruitful for a woman to explore feminist issues with other women/people who really care/people who are invested/etc than to find oneself in debate with men. Not that discussing women's issues with men is entirely pointless but it has an entirely different dynamic and tends to be adverserial and potentially hurtful. Not always, of course, but often.

There are loads of great threads on here and lots of brilliant writing on the internet. If you do a search you will also come across lots of excellent book recommendations (or you could start a thread on the subject as we haven't had one for a while).