DH believes women have equality and feminism is no longer needed

[Kirk1]

He also doesn't believe in "The Patriarchy" or that we have a problem with a rape culture.

We have recurring discussions, which always end up going round in the same stupid circles. I need new information and arguements to break the circle if(when) the conversation is resumed... So, who can help me?

Can we start with the Patriarchy question, because I always get bogged down with that one because he flat out refuses to acknowledge it unless I can give better examples than I can bring to mind at stupid-o-clock when we always appear to resume the discussion.

Hey there AF.

I agree that link is great. I like how it states that this stuff matters for women and that anyone treating it as an intellectual exercise in being right arseing about playing devils whatsit is trampling all over that.

(And inadvertently proving our point.)

Indeed. Hey back atcha, BC

Why does him taking on a female avatar mess with his opponents' heads? Presumably because they have different expectations when they think he's a woman...?

Someone posted a brilliant link on here that I now can't find, called Boys' Club, to a site where someone had collected hundreds of company staff pages and the vast majority of senior staff were all men.

If I was having the discussion with him, based on the framing of the debate he is arguing that feminism is no longer needed. It then falls to him to define and justify why. Yet he has now gotten you in the position of having to defend your position, when in actual fact it is his that requires the strongest advocacy.

If someone proposes a change, they have to be extremely knowledgeable and informed on their subject matter. He needs to define what he thinks feminism is and how it's objectives have been met, he will probably discover that his understanding of what feminism is is deeply flawed or woefully superficial.

I like this recent Slate article. It's written by an Asian male computer programmer about his own privilege in tech.

www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2014/01/programmer_privilege_as_an_asian_male_computer_science_major_everyone_gave.html

My DH rolls his eyes whenever I mention the Patriarchy. But I've come to understand that
(1) He also feels his choices have been circumscribed by his sex - but feels personally criticised when I say that mine have been.
(2) He feels powerless when he acknowledges structural problems, so he often chooses not to
(3) He has a colossal blind spot when it comes to his own privilege as a man.

I've stopped trying on point three. He works in a male dominated industry and chooses only to see the positive discrimination implemented to try to redress the balance (and not the incredibly skew-whiff balance itself).

I have some sympathy with him - I'm married to him, after all - and his day-to-day actions are sufficiently egalitarian, so I've stopped fighting the political fight. It's my fight and I choose to fight it in the public sphere more than the private one. He takes the kids while I go to political meetings - that's enough right now.

He does know that men run the world, though. He's not THAT daft.

BuffyI think we have to be careful about our own class/cultural privilege too. As the daughter of an Oxbridge academic, I agree that I stood a better chance of getting into Oxbridge than DH, whose parents left school at 16. This acknowledgement will also help us in our feminism - as an Oxbridge educated, middle-class woman, I draw more privilege than many other women. Still, I'd rather have DH's privilege than mine - at least now I have my degree. Not sure I would have wanted to start where he started, though...

Which brings me to Rawls (I love Rawls) - this argument always come down to justice. If you were designing a system and then getting a place in it assigned at random, would you choose this one or something fairer? Let the devil's advocates stick THAT in their pipes and smoke it!

DH uses this to play with the wankers by leading them on before informing them he's a big beardy chap, not the petite female he is playing...

And exactly what does 'leading them on' entail? Playing the game? Does he enjoy the male attention? Would he enjoy it in real life? When he can't kick ass on a MMO game?

He also doesn't believe in "The Patriarchy" or that we have a problem with a rape culture

Meet Dick Black: Virginia’s pro-spousal rape GOP Congressional candidate!

I know it is America, but his views are widely held. I can't believe that anyone can say there isn't a problem with rape culture.

Another example of contemporary data showing we (well Americans I think in this instance) don't have the same expectations of boys and girls:
www.nytimes.com/2014/01/19/opinion/sunday/google-tell-me-is-my-son-a-genius.html?_r=3

Hi everyone, Sorry I haven't been back in a while - life gets in the way...

Anyway, debate rejoined last night (grr, 2am bedtime on a Sunday is bad for the next morning. ack.)

Whoever it was posted the link to the everyday sexism project, thanks a lot for that. It appears he discovered it himself after our last conversation and he has changed his opinion. Or maybe when he said he didn't "believe" in patriarchy he was actually meaning that he thought it shouldn't exist, not that is doesn't Last night's reaction when I said "I thought you didn't believe in the Patriarchy?" was "Patriarchy makes me feel sick, especially religious patriarchy. Using Sky Fairies as an excuse to keep men in power is disgusting" (I was a bit surprised at his vehemence TBH!)

His issue with Feminism seems to be method, rather than the end aim. He feels there is a way of bringing women's rights and opportunities up to those of men's without attacking men along the way.

slug, I'm not going to suggest he change his name, I think he gets that. He got very cross when I received a letter addressed to "Mrs DH name" He spent the day muttering about how we are separate people and he is insulted that anyone would think that it was OK to treat me as though I had no identity of my own. Don't know why He was insulted, but it's a start, right?

Beachcomber, surely the heart of a political process is debate? Changing people's minds by pointing out what is wrong and giving clear and reasoned arguments about what solutions are available to correct the problems is far more effective than stamping your feet and shouting "It's not fair!"

The reason I debate it with DH is because he is safe, and I am a wuss when it comes to airing my opinions in public! I am starting to gain some confidence now (it's only taken 20 years...) so I am asking more questions and will maybe venture onto this part of the site more often ;)

Which things does he feel that feminism does which "attack" men?

Does he see any parallels between feminism not being bolshie with men and, say, Stonewall not being bolshie with straight people or the ANC not being bolshie with FW De Klerk?

I'd say it would depend on how Stonewall and the ANC went about their bolshiness, to be honest. Anyway, what is the difference between being bolshie and attacking?

I think there are a lot of men and women who believe that equality has broadly been achieved in the UK. I don't think that the OP's husband is alone in his views, and it isn't a view confined to the oppressing class.

Not necessarily a difference, Art, just varying the language, also since I don't know what was meant by "attacking " I didn't want to reuse the word.

Beachcomber, surely the heart of a political process is debate? Changing people's minds by pointing out what is wrong and giving clear and reasoned arguments about what solutions are available to correct the problems is far more effective than stamping your feet and shouting "It's not fair!"

OK. I typed out several slightly sarcastic replies to this and deleted them. This comment rather annoyed me, Kirk.

I repeat feminism is a political movement. It is not a debate, it is not an intellectual subject for study, it is not academic and it's purpose is not to entertain. It's purpose is to protest against a system of social organisation which is deeply unfair to girls and women, and which causes harm to girls and women, in order to advantage boys and men.

TBH I don't really see the purpose 'debate' has in feminism. Discussion, consciouness raising, exploration, self-discovery, sharing of experiences, organising and working together; yes. 'Debate'; not so much. (Which doesn't go to say that I think everybody agrees or should agree on all the tenets and aims of the feminist movement.)

But perhaps you and I do not mean the same thing by the word.

A lot of political activism involves stamping your feet and shouting 'It's not fair'. Demonstrations, marches, rallys, sit-ins, protests, petitions, etc. All of these are people joining together as a group to be heard saying that something is not fair. Don't knock it - it is one of the few means available for you to protest when you are excluded from the political process (as women and feminism traditionally are).

His issue with Feminism seems to be method, rather than the end aim. He feels there is a way of bringing women's rights and opportunities up to those of men's without attacking men along the way.

Feminists hear this a lot from men. Male dominance and male violence are the problem women face - how are we supposed to challenge these (serious human rights issues) without hurting the poor men's feelings and making them feel attacked? Men as a class harm women as a class. If they don't want to feel attacked by feminism perhaps they should stop.

Sexism is at the very heart of our constitution. Despite the sex Discrimination legislation we are ruled by a parliament in which access to the unelected house of lords is barred to women as either a bishop or a hereditary peer

silicone thankyou so much for this eye-opener. Literally have never thought of this before as an issue with the house of lords

Isn't there a difference between feminism and feminist theory? It is my understanding that although both inform upon the other one can take issue with the theory, but be fully committed to the objectives of feminism itself?

As a caveat to above my studies into feminist theory do reveal things worth challenging, but considering the enormity of the subject, and the fact it is a pillar towards a fairer society I have placed it in the same category as democracy in that as a society we gain far more from its presence and we would lose from its absence.