The Feminist Pub - come in and chat.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

This is something like the fourth pub chat thread - please pull up a chair at the bar. Everyone welcome.

Old thread is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1920422-The-Feminist-Pub-continued?

But it's pretty much full so welcome in.

fail

terraria, I've not read the whole thread yet (poor Lottie, that's rotten). But dyspraxia is one of my diagnoses along with dyslexia and I know that I much more often mention the dyslexia to people because I've pretty much made my peace with the stereotypes there, and rather less so with dyspraxia. I do think there is a lot going on with the idea that women should fit neatly into small spaces, and that we should be deft with our hands.

buffy, that's really interesting.

I definitely don't have Asperger's (I asked the ed psych who was doing my dyslexia assessment, cos he also specialises in that, and he said very obviously not). But I had a teacher in the sixth form who told me I must have it, and it pissed me off so much. Because clearly what she mean was 'you're not sweet and pliant therefore you are in some way Not Normal'. I mean, she knew fuck all about it (obviously), but she very much wanted a label.

I think it says a huge amount about our attitudes to disability as a society, that even people who accept that males and females are conditioned to act differently somehow assume that disability sweeps all of those differences aside. So people don't look for girls with asperger's presenting differently from boys with asperger's, although it's known they do. It's almost like assuming disability makes you slightly less human, I think? As if disabled people don't feel the same human social pressures to act in gendered ways.

Yeah, Buffy, a trophy icon would be great but lego is not getting one

It's the old intersectionality again, in some respect, isn't it?
Your disability 'overrides' your gender, your social class, your personality, your upbringing in people's perception.

Labels are tricky to: you need a diagnosis to access certain types of help and support, but it 'labels' you too

Btw, I am struggling to think of the man's name, but there's a book by a bloke whose son is autistic, and he explains (it's really interesting) how one of the issues with these spectrum disorders is that if you are a medic, and you know that there is funding for a person who's really struggling if you diagnose them as having, say 'dyspraxia' but not dyslexia' or 'ADHD' but not 'asperger's', there is tremendous pressure on you to do that ... because as a bottom line you want your patients to get help and you know that these conditions are co-morbid and overlapping anyway.

I guess it is quite obvious, but I found that interesting, because of course while it helps individuals, it contributes to the idea in the wider community that these conditions aren't quite real.

I don't know how that relates to feminism, but one way would be that women are socialised not to 'make a fuss' so are perhaps less likely to 'own' a diagnosis if it's socially derided a bit.

That's common I. Medicine in general, IIRC - women having a heart attack present differently to men, so for a long time they were less frequently spotted. And of course most drugs are tested on men (for valid "risk of pregnancy" reasons but still)

Buffy, coming from the medic perspective here, I am not sure what would be to be gained with a formal diagnosis - depending on how affected you are of course.
There is nowhere to assess an adult where I am, nothing, nada, zilch. I've tried to find out for an adult who had done an online assessment and was looking for further confirmation. They were extremely high-functioning and I think sought more information about themselves as they were about the have their first child.
There's not support for adults on the spectrum here either - if they are functioning as 'normal' (gawd, how I hate that word - one of my mum's favourite...).

I don't know whether little girls who have behavioural problems don't present more - surely if females are expected to be more compliant and 'nice' then a girl who does not conform to these expectations would be flagged up more?? Whereas a noisy, disruptive, cannot sit still boy is 'just a boy'? Not sure...

Yy re the functioning

I can completely see where you're coming from there, buffy. I reckon if it makes you unhappy/you need support, you get the diagnosis, but otherwise it's just good to know there is a description, I reckon.

pac - I believe (could be wrong) that women with aspergers aren't exactly not 'compliant and nice', but might struggle with the same difficulties in understanding social interaction. After all, a girl who is very withdrawn and seems nervous might be struggling just as much, but 'shyness' is an 'appropriate' female characteristic.

Sorry, that's such a generalization-filled post.

doctrine - YY, indeed. I lost my much-loved cousin because no-one around her knew that pains in your arm might indicate something serious.

Yes, but 'shyness' alone may also 'just' be shyness. I take your point, a shy girl is less likely to be flagged up and assessed.
And my description about the noisy boy was a bit crap for an ASD boy as well .

I'll get me coat...

LRD

Oh, of course.

I'm not suggesting anyone takes 'shyness' as a diagnostic criterion.

And don't get your coat! I'm just aware there are some amazing women on MN who know this stuff absolutely inside out, and I know I don't, so I am being cautious.

But, with that caveat - I guess what I mean is, if you find it impossible to understand why, for example, adults make small talk about things well known to both of them, you can react in a variety of ways. And I think that the culturally well-known/stereotyped Asperger's response would be something like, you interrupt and insist on talking about your own particular thing and ignore the small talk. But you might also, I think, simply avoid chatting to people, or you might develop hyper-correct small talk routines (I know someone who does this one). And if you are female, you are that much more expected to be socially very accommodating, so it's not an even choice which coping strategy you choose.

LRD is that book by David Mitchell (the author not the comedian)?,I read an article he wrote about his son last year and I think it was an extract from a book.

Test for Aspergers. The mean score for an average person is about 16, someone with Autism scores over 32. Mathematicians, Engineers and Scientists have a mean score of 22 if I remember rightly. I'm not sure how really scientific this is since it depends on self reporting but hey ho.

There was a great article a while ago about how autism in girls is most likely misdiagnosed as bipolar. Basically because High functioning girls are better at pretending to be NT - until they hit teens, hormones and the pressure of feeling different over whelms them and they become depressed. Any obsessiveness is then chalked up to the manic side of bipolar.

I found it very convincing regarding my friend who was diagnosed as bipolar when we were teens.

doctrine - thanks, I'm fine, it was a long time ago.

buffy, please do share. That's what we're here for.

There must be other female academics with asperger's - would they be able to talk to you?

I know I'm not very similar at all, but I do like having a formal diagnosis for what I have and I do think it helps, if only because I feel able occasionally to say 'look, this is not reasonable, this is harder for me and you have to make allowances'. And you are clearly extremely successful already, so it should be in their interests to do that?

maillot - no, it wasn't, but that book sounds interesting too, thank you.

That's awful, te. And I find it very plausible too.

I got 30 on that test, but I will observe that it is near-impossible for a dyslexic like me because it requires you to remember whether 'agree' is on the right or the left when you've scrolled down!