The Feminist Pub - come in and chat.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

This is something like the fourth pub chat thread - please pull up a chair at the bar. Everyone welcome.

Old thread is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1920422-The-Feminist-Pub-continued?

But it's pretty much full so welcome in.

benid - bookmark this for next time you're disgruntled.

Toddler groups are for the parents. And they only don't affect men because most fathers don't work part time. Fathers who do work part time need them just as much as mothers. DH found the one he went to gave his day at home structure and he's made some good friends there, it helped that there was another Dad (who he got on with) as well, I think it's easier for 2 men to make friends with women in a female environment than for one man on his own.

I found it quite hard to make friends when on maternity leave, my NCT group were not people I had a lot in common with but I eventually found some people who became good friends but it was partly because I saw them at several different groups that we really got chatting. Small towns make it easier I think because you can slowly build up a friendship because you keep bumping into each other.

NCT is actually a fantastic concept I found. You're thrown into a new, totally alien world and lifestyle, many of your old friends are unable to relate and/or it's not as easy to get together with them any more and suddenly also there is a lot which is hard to cope with and new and scary and confusing as well as you being an emotional mess and the arrival of the baby throwing a bombshell into your relationship, the state of your home and your self worth often feeling defined by how "good" or "bad" you are at this.

That's a time when you really need a support group, someone you can cry at, ask stupid questions to etc. And the problem is that for many people there is no pre-existing group in their lives which fits this purpose, so to have a support system artificially created for you is genius.

I did not stay friends with anyone in my NCT group past about 2 or 3 years but they were absolutely invaluable in the first year. Later as I got to know people at various groups I got to know people who I had more in common with personally, but I think I would have been lost without the NCT group.

I'm living abroad now and finding a similar thing with expat groups. In fact the one I've found here is very much women only, some are working but a lot are trailing spouses and it feels incredibly vital to have that support there.

thanks errol. I am now very gruntled indeed

I loved baby groups and toddler groups.

With dd1 I was a bit lost, all my school friends were away at uni, I was back at home having a baby. I did have my parents but I didn't want to spend all my time with them. So I went to every group available, post-natal exercise class, baby massage, baby swimming, baby weighing clinic, we went places with the ante-natal group. It really did keep me sane(ish). We stopped needing each other so much once the dcs were at school and most of us were back at work/uni but I'm still friends with quite a few of them. I don't know how anybody keeps sane without some sort of support network, staying in the house with just small children for company would be my worst nightmare, but staying at home with small children and a place to go to every day is lovely.

I agree that baby\toddler groups are mainly there for the parents' sanity and are as useful to fathers as they are to mothers - my somewhat 'special interest' toddler groups is growing and thriving (we started out in each other's living rooms) and there are a fair number of father attending regularly; this is of course related to their working patterns.

I have a gripe with some of the more commercial baby groups including but not limited to BabySensory, Gymboree etc which IMO are the double-whammy of being expensive and guilt-inducing if not attended ("If Junior does not make it in to Oxbridge, is is because I was too skint/lazy/at work and did not go to baby massage?").
I remember sitting at RhymeTime at the local library (free) in tears because DS1(8months) was screaming his head off (he screamed for the first 2 year/s of his life) and thinking 'What on earth am I doing here? He's not listening to 'Dear Zoo', I know the frigging plot and my ear drums are about to explode'. I never went back .
His reading/writing/communication skill at almost-11 are fine, so my study of 1 conclusively proves that You Don't Need RhymeTime .

See why I would've made a rubbish academic?

Oh yes, there are definitely some that are guilt inducing if you don't attend. I have never worried about that but I know other women who do. Dd1 never went to anything more expensive than 50p per session for the refreshments/room hire. With dd2 I did some baby swimming lessons which were more expensive, but that was only because I couldn't get to the swimming pool any other time with a group of mums, and I quite fancied taking her swimming. I have no illusions that baby swimming will make her an Olympic swimmer or anything. We did baby sensory as well but again it was because there wasn't another group on that day and I hated spending the whole day by myself not talking to anyone, I didn't even pretend to anyone other than dp who complained about the cost that it was for dd2's benefit.

To clarify, I don't think that there is anything wrong as such with expensive baby activities IF people can afford them and cab, but I don't think that there is evidence to suggest that they are 'required' to ensure a happy, healthy, clever child .

And yy to structured day.

I always thought the point of the expensive baby activities (and NCT is one of them) was similar to private school, you are paying for the privilege of mixing with people of similar income levels.

I always found 'activities' were actually a worse way to meet people than the £1 church hall toddler groups. In an activity people tended to rush in as class started and rush out at the end. Only one did people hang around afterwards, and that was with a group of people I already knew plus a couple. Whereas in a toddler group you are much more able to mingle and chat.

I do agree about babies and structure to the day though. I always say I could never have my first child again. By which I don't mean that it is such a steep learning curve (although it is), it's that by the time I get to no. 3 my day will be full with school runs and toddler groups and pre-school drop offs and pick ups and meal times and 101 other things. With a six month old baby 8am-7pm (when DH got in) often felt like a life sentence of time. With this one I doubt we will do much except maybe swimming as I'll be constantly dashing about (and hopefully, in due course, working or studying).

Ah, this is where I went wrong the free council-run rhymetime was just full of the hoi polloi

You should see my favourite toddler group (the only one I actually like) Pacific. There are people from the estate.

The council estate?

Because 'my' group has the foreign language special interest, we do attract people from all over the city (people travel quite far to attend) and it's great how diverse that makes things. No opportunity for cliques . Although interesting discussions have been had between natural term BFers and FFers; reusable nappy users (some of which also use Mooncups ) and Pampers users; Attachment Parenters vs CIO; etc etc - you get the picture.

I did not particularly bond with anybody in my NCT group, but one of them told me about this toddler group, so paying my money to NCT was well worth it overall .

Oh yes the council estate. Shocking I know.

I am actually afraid of toddler groups and things like that. In fact, I'll be completely honest and say I really struggle with social interaction of any sort. Bucking stereotype of women being social there.

I went to a few things I really liked when DD1 was smaller, but once I had DD2, I struggled taking them both. Heaven knows how I'll manage with DC3.

Also, there's an interesting thread on dyspraxia in chat atm. here.

I am dyspraxic so I was relieved to find it as I have often felt like a failure as a woman because of it and I'm rather interested what your take on it would be. Is it less socially acceptable and possibly underdiagnosed in women because we hide it? Or what?

He he. I live in the NE, no avoiding hoi polloi here. Although I'm wondering where I fit as a mooncup user who puts her children in disposables.

Hello, haven't been here before but Buffy was offering crisps on the thread about lurkers

Marking place so I can read the thread when I have got 3 warring boys into bed...

BarSister, incoming, someone wants a Blue Lagoon!

Vodka, blue Curaçao and lemonade. I think we are good.

Phew!

Bugger I can't drink for 4 more days. Picked the wrong week to come on a Pub thread.

Oh, my first alcohol related vomit was from Blue Lagoon . Classy bird, me! Goes well with crisps too

Oh cripes, stereotypes! I find myself a bit unsure what to think about them. There's always this "every cliché has a kernel of truth" vs. they mean bugger all for individuals.

Terraria, I think there are many reasons why people can feel uncomfortable in social situations (more than is accepted as 'normal' discomfort, I mean), not 'just' dyspraxia or ASD or social anxiety disorder or whatever.
I am not sure whether women get underdiagnosed with dyspraxia because of their femaleness... hm. I am currently trying to get a little boy assessed and there is little in the way of recognised pathway which is frustrating all round . And there is this impression that dyspraxia = trips a lot, which may be part of the problem but not all of it as you'll be well aware.

Buffy, I love your intelligent discourse on many a subject, so Aspie or not, keep it coming .

lego, well, love, you're just plain weird - no excuse for that kind of inconsistency [win]

Maillot - Doesn't matter. Tis virtual alcohol. I am pregnant so barely drinking in real life, but I regularly order pints of wine on here. Or have a . When setting up the pub, we also agreed that it would have a lovely selection of non alcoholic drinks.