The Feminist Pub - come in and chat.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

This is something like the fourth pub chat thread - please pull up a chair at the bar. Everyone welcome.

Old thread is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1920422-The-Feminist-Pub-continued?

But it's pretty much full so welcome in.

It's just this guy

I was watching some dork MRA on his youtube upload (I know, I know - glutton for punishment) and he said that when he engages with feminists, he always starts with "I'm not an MRA, but..." According to him this means we have to listen to him, because he's stated he's not an MRA.

Er... no we don't.

Or we see it as a very helpful sign from the beginning of the conversation that we are dealing with an MRA. Much like "I'm not a racist but" is very helpful shorthand.

I think feminists probably listen to him (in RL, online I normally ignore) because, at heart, most of us are optimists. You have to be really. A pessimist feminist would pretty much want to slit her wrists. So there is always a little bit of you that thinks "I will listen politely and maybe I can do some good here".

Buffy- Get your arse out the pub and get on with your work

Gotcha.

Gah.

I really, really do hate mansplainers' English. Why do they think if they write reeeeeaaaaaly long sentences with lots of big words and convoluted syntax, they'll sound clever? Why?

{grin}

{Well done on the article}

The article sounds awesome.

That article does sound amazing. Where is it going to be published? And when? Can I read it? What's it about? Don't answer me til at least lunchtime because you are supposed to be working!!! so am I

Oh, thanks, Penguins. I saw his OP and CBA.

Now off to work I go...

Buffy, what a fabulous article.

kickassangel, I would love to see that study.

I have a work bete noir (not a colleague, he works for another company - who supposedly work for us, we are the client, which makes it worse) who has an email style that is fascinating in its bingo-ness in terms of dropping in constant subtle denigrations of my ability to make decisions, as opposed to his.
Absolutely everything in it seethes with arrogance and I would actually like to do a master class on it, in how not to talk to people

I've seen people talking about differences in language in reference letters. Essentially, men are often described in more flattering terms. Where flattering = more likely to get hired. Had a quick google, this might be the paper

www.academic.umn.edu/wfc/rec%20letter%20study%202009.pdf

"Discourse Analysis" - sometimes I think I would love to be an academic and spend leisurely afternoons in dusty libraries reading and learning and meandering around with leather-bound tomes; then I realise that I am the World's Worst Academic (once upon a time when I tried) and could not be arsed to do the writing up of anything ever and I calm down again .
Sometimes I look at OU courses online...

Language is so important in what it reveals about the culture it is used in - for instance languages that have a separate word for 'maternal aunt' and 'paternal aunt', rather than just 'aunt'.

Gawd, the pub is a haven of reason tonight - Canadian Joe was boring in comparison.

I am still bitter and twisted about the time I was rejected from a job after THREE interviews (yes they did hire a man) and when I asked for feedback (which I think was reasonable as the shortlist was two people, and I did a presentation), I got told (drumroll - wait for this fabulous bit of searing criticism of me at work from an HR professional):

"They thought you were a really nice girl but they decided to go with the other candidate in the end."

why did they go with the other candidate?

"Ah, you know, they thought you were really nice, but..."

Oh, helpful, Dusk, grrr on your behalf.

I once flew to Germany for an interview having been short-listed and passed a telephone interview with HR. Attended interview in my smart suit and my heels (!), lippy may have been worn, had a good interview with a panel of 4 (3 men, 1 woman) and as I left the secretary said to me 'Goodbye, better luck next time'.
So I broke my stride looking a bit like and asked her what she meant seeing that I had been told I'd be advised of the outcome within the next 24 hours (fair enough).
She said 'Oh the position has been given to an internal candidate'. Some time ago apparently.

This is 20 years ago and I have got over it just but I am annoyed with my younger self that I did not kick up the world's largest stink. They knew I was coming from abroad - bastards!
I also took the opportunity to visit my parents but they did not know that

GRRRRRR! That is outrageous.
At the same company where I was told I was a "nice girl", I presented, making detailed recommendations on one of their projects, without giving hand outs (to stop them flipping through) and then afterwards offered them a hard copy of the presentation (to consider my application). They said "yes please, there are some good ideas in there" !!! so in other words I attended 3 interviews, did a load of concept / design work for free, and got told I was a "nice girl" (I was mid-30s)

We have recently been taken over by a bigger, more aggressive company and there has been a big restructure as the new Big Cheese moves us all around, and makes new hires. The new hires are all senior, and they are all men. the old team was mainly women and several have been demoted.

Honestly, the new people have visibly better experience and qualifications than the people who have been kicked down a rung or two. On an individual basis I can't argue with any of them. but WHY are they always men? HOW did they get to there, and the women didn't? It pisses me off.

(I have stayed in roughly the same place which feels like a bit of a result compared to what has happened to everyone else)

Well, you'll be everybody else's trail blazer then .

Pacific, you would not love it. I did it fi
for a job years ago and can't remember a word of it.

In those days it was a large fuss about a problem which was real, but smaller than inequality in a practical sense.