When will MRAs realise that it's Misogynists who hate men, not Feminists!

[BarfaStewart]

I was thinking about this again last night.

Feminists believe that men are not genetically programmed to rape, abuse, hurt, cheat or oppress.

Feminists believe that men are responsible for their own actions, and capable of behaving decently and treating others equally.

It's the Misogynists who assume that they can't control their penises/behaviour/actions.

It's Misogynists who believe women should manage their own behaviour to avoid triggering some genetic fuckwittery.

So, why is it that Feminists are painted as man-haters, and not those who actually do?

Answers on a postcard please....

"you ignore the fact that humans are very much individual and statements of the form "All women are X" and "All men are Y" are about as much practical use as a hatful of weasel sphincters."

True.

BasilBabyEater, yes, I'm with you on the perceptions thing - the background I come at this from, I call it 'false consciousness' - but there is still an objective material reality that these people are observing, and they are making a choice to superimpose the bullshit. I'm going to dig in on this one and keep calling it stupidity, I'm afraid: to do otherwise is to do a disservice to the ones that have their moment of clarity and stop being pillocks.

Arf.

I won't go to the barricades on that one.

Stupidity is a good description.

Also insecurity and fear. If my uncle had a moment of clarity, he would realise that he is a very mediocre man, that he has been abusive and utterly selfish and been rewarded because of his privilege and would have to recognise that he is a Bad Man and that everything he has ever believed about himself has been wrong.

This is a completely horrifying and grief-inducing thing to happen to people and so naturally they try and avoid it.

BBE, exactly! No one wants to know they are abusive/oppressors/rapists. Many will deny it to the very end. What's the saying, you hate those you hurt more than those who hurt you.

Yep. It's why I have a huge amount of admiration for those who actually get that grip of themselves and turn it around. It takes courage, honesty, humility and a whole bundle of other virtues and a backbone of solid steel.

Does being an MRA require active membership of an organisation, such as F4J? Or is it really just a set of attitudes - what some of us of a certain age might call a male chauvinist pig. Basil's uncle sounds like an idiot, but is he an activist?

I'm not entirely sure that's true. It is possible to construct such an effective prism of perception that every single interaction you ever have with s specific group of people, can be interpreted through that prism in order to reinforce your view.

I have often read on here that people are viewing a situation or statement through the prism of feminism/feminist analysis. So are they always bad?

No.

Agreed, Doctrine. In fact, I would go further. To have only one prism, a singular way of looking at everything, a pre-defined list of categories that you subsequently twist everything to fit neatly into, is inherently a bad thing. Like uncle Buck up there.

is it all down to rank stupidity? Ignorance? Do we owe these campaigners a better education?

Well, no wonder, when all recent educational policies have been to bias everything in favour of girls, so it's no wonder they're not getting a decent education. And as for all those jobs where they just have to employ a woman, because of some PC positive discrimination policy... (So no, it's not all about childcare.) A bloke at work the other day was going on about how white men are so discriminated against these days. I looked round our open-plan area which seats around 50, and less than 10% are women (it's a bit better on ethnic diversity, but not much,) and just rolled my eyes and made a comment about where are all these over-privileged women, then?

But anyway -
To have only one prism, a singular way of looking at everything, a pre-defined list of categories that you subsequently twist everything to fit neatly into, is inherently a bad thing.

I agree. IME, the people who tend to be most prejudiced in the way they behave tend to be the ones who never question their own opinions or decisions. But so many things aren't just black and white, and humans make mistakes - never questioning yourself and what you do and what you think is not a great way to live nor a great way to relate to others, because they don't all fit neatly in the boxes we might try to ascribe to them.

I think what people such as your colleague don't understand is that they aren't actually being pushed out, they just don't enjoy such a position of privilage as they did. It seems like they are having rights and opportunities removed, when in reality they are beoing offered to a wider audience. It goes back to the "no one wants to acknowledge that they are part of an oppressive system" thing.

I know. Some of them are just arses, and one of them, if he says one more sexist "jokey" comment, there will be a formal complaint going in. He seems to be of the opinion that women can't really do IT.

They don't seem to get the idea that they can still go for jobs and promotions, it's just that there may be a wider pool of people applying these days, and some of them are women, and some of them will be good enough to get the job, and you can't positively discriminate anyway.

They don't seem to get the idea that they can still go for jobs and promotions, it's just that there may be a wider pool of people applying these days, and some of them are women, and some of them will be good enough to get the job, and you can't positively discriminate anyway.

That's it exactly! opportunities that a short while ago would have been sure things, aren't guaranteed anymore. No one likes to have their status quo shifted. It's vaguely reminiscent of a toddler putting down a toy, then when someone else picks it up, screaming!

Brilliant way of putting it that I heard once: the prospect of becoming a second-class citizen is only scary to people who've spent their entire lives treating second-class citizens like shit.

There was some research done recently that shows that the motivation to hold on to something you already have, is much greater than the motivation to get more.

Someone who has more than their fair share of stuff, will fight much harder to keep the unfair status quo, than those who want to have a bit more.

Which is slightly dispiriting.