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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

AIBU to think that if MN are willing to boycott certain groups on ethical grounds

292 replies

APartridgeAmongThePigeons · 31/10/2013 10:42

they really should take a look at banning posters proclaiming themselves MRAs?

Sexist,

often racist,

frequently rape/ domestic violence deniers

I know that mumsnet want to keep a lively discussion going and not ban free speech but when they join a forum mainly used by women it's hard to believe it's not about being goady and spewing propaganda.

The result is that normal posters get angry..
engage...

And then get deleted or banned for "personal attack".

Using a nasty word for someone who has by just stating that they are an MRA has basically said you don't matter as a human seems the normal response.

OP posts:
SabrinaMulFUCKERJjones · 01/11/2013 15:59

That mra in Chat has been suspended now, according to MNHQ. Unusual for HQ to actually announce that on thread - but I do think that they (and most posters here) would consider the websites he linked to "beyond the pale".

APartridgeAmongThePigeons · 01/11/2013 16:02

Also I don't disagree issues that affect only men should be ignored at all. I just don't think that there needs to be a "Movement" for it as the current world political system everywhere is already geared toward helping men what with being almost entirely male.

Which is why practically everything bar a few issues that are probably more class related than anything is set up fr men.

OP posts:
Treen44444 · 01/11/2013 16:03

I suppose, partridge, MRA could be the extreme section of men's issue.

Treen44444 · 01/11/2013 16:07

I suppose it's personal choice whether there should be a movement or not.

APartridgeAmongThePigeons · 01/11/2013 16:18

yes, but it's a questionable one. Like with white power.

Also they make things about men that are actually not about men. The poster on the other thread kept referring to his mh issues and the fact that he had previously tried to kill himself and said suicide was a "mens issue" because more men die from it.

Far more women attempt suicide than men do but take the "soft option" that leaves their body intact for the person who finds them. So they are less likely to succeed. Men are more likely to do something like shoot or hang themselves than women are.

So mh is not a "mens issue" at all. It's an issue that we as a society choose to ignore because of prejudice against mental health issues not about men or women. If you were going to make it a gendered issue you'd wonder why so many more women are depressed to the point of suicide than men.

OP posts:
Minnieisthedevilmouse · 01/11/2013 16:21

Confused. How do you know whose who?

What am I? M? F? Young? Middle /old? Black? White? Religious or not?

I also change my views because of stuff I read so one day might be a prize fool on a thread but next because I learn I'm intelligent or whatever.

For me it's open to all or none. No inbetween.

Treen44444 · 01/11/2013 16:28

Partridge, the majority of a men's issues movement could think that the MRA are nutters. They may not respect them. They may focus their energies on different issues.
I believe the MRA play a small role in the men's issues movement

Treen44444 · 01/11/2013 16:29

Minnie, I will have a guess:

F,middle aged, white, non religious

SabrinaMulFUCKERJjones · 01/11/2013 16:38

MN is not necessarily open to all - it is not open to people who post obscene, racist, sexist, disablist or homophobic comments. It is not open to posters who come here to goad, inflame, or post libellous remarks.

Suelford · 01/11/2013 16:52

I don't think there'll ever be reasoned, unbiased debate about the MRAs here. It just ends up in "they don't need a movement" or "feminism fights for men too, they're redundant" which is blinkered and self-congratulatory.

If you actually do something as ridiculous as asking men about their views on "men's rights" (e.g. here or here) you find that they do have genuine concerns that feminism isn't addressing in a meaningful way. I'll put out some quotes for the people who don't want to follow the links, which are SFW by the way.

"I think that they bring up some good points just as general feminists bring up some good points. My problem is generally that people take things WAY too far."

"I like the idea of equality. I feel there are certain issues (custody, alimony, he-said/she-said violence disputes, societal condemnation of pre-convected/un-convected accused of sexual crimes, etc) that are unfair towards men. I feel that feminism doesn't seem to address these issues with any type of priority. I do NOT agree with the more extremists of either group, feminists or men's rights activists."

"I think men's issues are by and large ignored by the groups that say they address them, so the men's rights movement is the natural response. Some of what I see on subreddits and blogs related to it can be ridiculous, but a large amount is worthwhile and on point. As with anything the radicals are ridiculous and the moderates are fine. I would prefer if a men's rights movement wasn't necessary, but the other "right's" movements aren't egalitarian, so needs must."

"I'm both a feminist and a men's rights advocate. There are some really strong parallels in both. In both cases, there are completely legitimate grievances that are even now ignored. In both cases, there are real injustices going on that have no place happening. However, in both cases, people see a movement for one gender as the movement against the other. I've been strongly against such people on both fronts I don't like feminists who use the name to slander men, and I don't like Men's rights advocates who use the name to slander women. This isn't rocket science We all deserve a shot at equality, and we all deserve to be heard where equality isn't how things are. We should all be working together towards making things more like how they should be in general, rather than wasting our energy on stupid fights between people who fundamentally agree."

"They're certainly not perfect, but they fulfill a very important role. Feminism is a woman's movement, not some all-inclusive movement for gender equality. They have neither the will nor the ability to address men's issues, except in the very narrow ways that men's issues can be interpreted to be side-effects of women's issues . And it's really not a problem that feminism doesn't address men's issues—they're perfectly free to focus their efforts on what they have a passion for. But what it does mean is that we need a men's movement too, because as it is, the modern discourse on gender issues is almost entirely dominated by the women's movement and as a result, men's issues get almost no attention at all (despite the fact that the issues men face really aren't all that trivial). There's nothing wrong with there being a woman's movement, but there is something wrong with there being a woman's movement without a men's movement to challenge it and provide a counter-balance (I wouldn't want a men's movement without a women's movement either). As for the actual issues I take with the men's rights movement, they spend too much time attacking feminists themselves instead of rationally challenging their ideas and providing the counter-balance that I talk about. It's very important to look at feminist ideas and challenge the ones that don't make sense, but there are too many people in the men's rights movement who make the jump from "I disagree with feminists" to "feminists are bad people". I fully believe that most feminists are well-meaning, whether I agree with them on certain issues or not."

Suelford · 01/11/2013 17:00

"Painting all Men's Rights advocates as misogynist [is] literally the same thing as painting all feminists as misandrists. Hear me out. Every idea has a lunatic fringe. I don't pretend that the crazy man-haters are representative of all feminism, and people shouldn't pretend that the crazy woman-haters are representative of all MRAs. It's really that simple.

"Oh, but they need to police themselves if they want to be taken seriously!" Really? So all feminist groups ALL "police themselves" and none of them entertain wild, lunatic, fringe ideas? Please. The reality is that reasonable feminists and MRAs both do their best to ignore, cover-up, or downplay their lunatic fringe, and promote their best and brightest.

Finally, men's rights DO NOT have to come at the expense of women's rights. They just don't. And men do NOT have to fight for their rights under the name of feminism. I will always support reasonable and thought-provoking feminists and their struggle, and thank them for inspiring men to look at their own issues and needs through a new lens.

Give men a chance to fight for equality on their own terms."

"The funny thing is that MRA wouldn't even be necessary if feminism wasn't sexist in their actions. When an inequality exists, but you only ever help one side of the equation then don't be surprised a new group will emerge to fight for the other side."

"I'd argue that MRA would be necessary with or without feminism, because society would still have issues. I don't blame feminism for promoting primarily women, that's the purpose of the movement. It's in the very name. No one expects black empowerment movements to empower other races, or agriculture groups to advocate for industrial centres. No one group can have universal advocacy for all issues.
I do think that modern feminism has been attempting to be a universal human rights advocacy, attempting to bring LGBT groups, men, racial advocacy groups, etc, all under one wing called feminism, which I think is a mistake. Alliance of disparate groups, all with their own specific smaller goals, is difficult. And insisting that it's all "feminism" is just silly; there's already a word for universal human rights advocacy, it's "humanism." I'll certainly say that feminist scholars and theorists have done a lot to elevate the level of discourse, created amazing new terms and mental exercises that have changed the game for lots of different groups in great ways. I'd argue that their theorizing has enabled MRA and others, helping them to see the world in new and exciting ways."

Suelford · 01/11/2013 17:00

Oops Blush that was a bit longer than I thought.

SabrinaMulFUCKERJjones · 01/11/2013 17:17

Painting all Men's Rights advocates as misogynist [is] literally the same thing as painting all feminists as misandrists.

You see, that's just the sort of comment that tries to come across as 'reasonable' - but just isn't. We don't live in a world where men are oppressed as a class. Feminism seeks to redress the social, sexual and political inequality of women, as a class, purely because of their gender.

Mras seem to want to put a stop to that.

APartridgeAmongThePigeons · 01/11/2013 17:24

You see, that's just the sort of comment that tries to come across as 'reasonable' - but just isn't. We don't live in a world where men are oppressed as a class. Feminism seeks to redress the social, sexual and political inequality of women, as a class, purely because of their gender.

yes, that

OP posts:
Treen44444 · 01/11/2013 17:33

I think the extreme MRAs do want to stop feminism. Not the average members

SabrinaMulFUCKERJjones · 01/11/2013 17:35

Sure they do treen.

They want women to know their place and make them a sandwich.

Treen44444 · 01/11/2013 17:37

It's like the extreme of feminists. They are not representative

SabrinaMulFUCKERJjones · 01/11/2013 17:39

I don't agree treen - mra's are anti-feminist - which by it's very definition means that they don't want women to have equality.

Treen44444 · 01/11/2013 17:44

Do you advise that people find the most extreme feminist website and judge all feminists as that? It's not logical.

You are using the same method that extreme MRAs use to define feminists, and applying it to defining MRAs. Thats one thing you have in common.

SabrinaMulFUCKERJjones · 01/11/2013 17:45

The MRM defines itself as anti-feminist, treen.

Suelford · 01/11/2013 17:48

I think it is a reasonable statement. Generalising MRAs as their extreme fringe is the exact equivalent of generalising feminists as their extreme fringe, surely?

Treen44444 · 01/11/2013 17:49

The extreme population of that group do, extreme feminists say they are anti-men.
They are not representative.

Suelford · 01/11/2013 17:54

"The MRM defines itself as anti-feminist, treen."

Is there a source for that? Or do you mean that some MRA groups said that? There isn't a single, unified platform, just like there isn't for feminism.

SabrinaMulFUCKERJjones · 01/11/2013 17:54

Definitions of MRAs:

1. Acronym for a group called Men's Rights Activists.

I.E. - A bunch of whiny pedantic morons that think there is some vast Illuminati feminist conspiracy while seemingly ignoring the fact that their own gender runs the majority of the world.

2. An MRA is a troglodyte that writes “women’s rights --- ROFLOL!“ and “a woman is the useless skin around the vagina” on Urban Dictionary.
An MRA thinks that a woman should be locked in the kitchen and “slammed and beaten” (a quote). They are scared shitless that one day women might become truly equal and try to use all kinds of defamations and con artistry to keep women down.

3. An MRA is a white man who insists against all evidence and decency that white men are oppressed and than women and minorities are "revered and privileged."
An MRA would never support the rights of those men who truly are at a disadvantage in our society: homosexual and black men. Instead, he leaves campaigning for LGBT rights and minorities' rights to the "evil evil cunt bull dykes" aka feminists.
An MRA sits on a huge pile of white and male privilege and keeps whining that he is oppressed.

4. The most screaming announcement of insecurity and masculine shortcomings short of two pit bulls in a lifted 4x4 truck with a "No Fear" sticker on the window.
They never live up to the “no fear” slogan though.
An MRA is always suffering from Little Man’s Complex.
Hates women because they wouldn’t give him the time of day.

There are more. Thank you Urban Dictionary: I love you Grin

EarthMither · 01/11/2013 17:56

Urban Dictionary FTW Sabrina Grin