The Feminist Pub - come on in, chat, ask a quick question, ramble ... whatever you like!

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Hello and welcome! Pull up a chair!

This thread started when we all decided to imagine what the perfect local for feminists would be like. So far, it has taps with plenty of good real ale, and some decent non-alcoholic alternatives too. There are comfy chairs and there's a feminist film night, as well as lots of nice feminist-friendly books on the shelves and space to curl up and read. The open-mic nights are attracting feminist singers and comedians, and we're just sorting out the feminist creche.

Old thread is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1875250-The-Feminist-Pub-is-Open-Chat-Rant-or-pull-up-a-chair-here. But don't feel you need to read or catch up - just jump in.

I'm having a nice cup of earl grey but there is wine mulling as requested.

What can I get anyone?

Thanis uptoapointlordcooper

(((murderofgoths)))

Sorry, thanks, not thanis!!!

Aw, Murder {hugs}

I know what you mean, I've had moments thanking my lucky stars that I have boys.
But - as I think I have now said twice on this thread - I worry about them too: how to get them safely through their teenaged years, I don't want them to have inappropriate first sexual encounters (or subsequent ones), I don't want them to get anybody pregnant, I don't want them hurt or worse in some stupid fight or drink driving, egged on by their mates etc etc. Young males live a dangerous life....
I concede if they come through all that unscathed, they can march off in to the sunset of Patriarchy and all the advantages that brings them.
That's why I raise them to be good feminists.

It'll be lovely having a girl.
I threatened DS1 to plait his hair the other day (it's not that long tbh) because I had a grooming urge....

MurderofGoths, but she will have the Sisterhood! And You! And Us! Congratulations (not for the girl but for the baby)

I enjoyed reading the Women's Hobbies thread and many of the same points came up.
One of the things that I think is vitally important to get from hobbies if you are a SAHP is "flow". Having an activity which takes you over at its own pace is very important for mental health, almost regardless of what the activity is. Much as I loathe cleaning, I can almost imagine enjoying doing it without children around, relative to doing it with, just to be able to get the hell on with something uninterrupted and doing a good job. Some people get that at work (I do sometimes although am also often interrupted). Many jobs do not afford that luxury and I consider myself lucky. SAHPs surely never do, except in school hours if they have school age children.

And this is why it is a horrible irony that SAHMs are so often expected to do all the bits of the hobby except the flow, when that is actually the bit that matters. "Yes, you can do your singing / crafting / sport / exercise / writing / whatever you like, as long as you do it around the kids." that's the equivalent of saying, "you can have any food you like, as long as you don't expect to eat any of it" (which is exactly what some women do do quite literally with food itself I have realised just after typing it)O

My remark on your other thread now seems rather flippant, Murder. Sorry.

It's ok Pacific, I made the same comment myself!

I'm not too upset by it, or at least, trying not to think about it, I just figured that if anyone would understand my thinking then you lot in the pub would!

I only heard about the 'Gentleman's Family' v recently and was rather... about it. An heir and somebody to make an advantageous match for the family...

Bloody hell, I am glad I was born where and when I was!

D'you know what: you are expecting a baby, you will love her and she will be your child. All will be well .

I remember expecting DS2 (we knew their sex early on each time) being so relieved he was a boy because my overriding thought had been "OMG, I have not idea what to DO with a girl". Which is just stoopid.
At least you have some rational concerns.

Oh, and I do feel a bit outnumbered at times...

Am on my phone so this will be brief. but I have girls. I feel that at least with girls I kind of understand the world they will face. Preparing boys to resist patriarchal society seems more daunting somehow!

Yes. I love having girls, although they are only little so it's not like I'm an expert or anything. But I feel very close to them and I feel like I know what they are up against.

Whoo hoo. Results in on the amniocentesis and it is clear. Back for a large virtual to celebrate later.

I have a boy and two girls. I think I worry more about my son, he's been attacked in the past which resulted in him needing stitches. DD2 went off the rails a bit but now she's fine. I'm immensely proud of her after all she went through to get to where she is now.

Oh brilliant, Penguins, so pleased for you. I thought it was tomorrow and was studiedly not mentioning it.
When is the baby due?
What great news.

That's great penguins!

Thanks. It was meant to be tomorrow for the results but I'd been told that sometimes they come in early.

I'm so pleased that I don't have to deal with that particular difficult decision. I feel we're going through the ringer a bit with this one - what with it being unplanned and then this, plus I am feeling much less well than I did last time. The second trimester is meant to be the bit where you are ok....

Baby due early May.

Penguin.

As someone (possibly Joss Whedon, linked on another thread) said, inequality is toxic to both sexes.

What do we want?

EQUALITY

When do we want it?

FUCKING NOW!!!

Fucking yesterday in fact!

Penguins, that's fabulous news , v pleased for you as well. It's lovely when the results come in quicker than expected, rather than taking longer

I wish there was a way to get this point across more: Inequality is toxic to both sexes. Yy to that.

On a totally unrelated matter: does anybody know anything about TED and TED conferences? I've just stumbled across this and now I am hooked.

Thanks for sharing your great news Penguins

Unable to discuss parenthood and the sexual division of labour without feeling too much ATM. So I will enjoy a v v large virtual yummy.

Good morning!

Just to cheer us all up a bit further - my book also says (along with any number of other books) that women tend to put up with up to 75% more housework before they perceive it to be unfair. Women tend to compare how much they do by how much other women do, and perceive themselves to be inadequate. Men tend to compare how much they do with other men, and perceive themselves to be superheroes. I think that sort of makes sense. One of the possibilities why women do this is that there is a price to perceiving injustice. Then you either have to admit you are a failure or you have to do something about it which is never easy.

That's cheered me up now...

I'm going to eat a boiled egg for breakfast.

Sorry, I don't mean "admitting to be a failure", I mean admitting to being oppressed, which is a failure, not of self, but of society..., of being let down, rather than being a failure.

Should never type deep thoughts so early in the morning.

Why don't blouses have proper room for boobs?

Can I blame the patriarchy?

The housework issue is so depressing. It's all encompassing. There is no escape from it. Even with a cleaner I was forever clearing up after everyone, then tidying for the cleaner. And even when I return to work I will do far more than DH. I work pt, but then my days off are to take care if our small DCs. He used to have DS one day a week (he runs his own company from home) and when I got in the house would look like a bloody squat. So when I'm on mat leave or a day off the expectation is that I keep house as well as look after the DCs. This is not the case with DH (although he isn't too bad I suppose) which means that his time with DS is quality, fun time and mine seems to be, well, less fun. Reinforcing the idea that dads are more fun than mums. Actually, I feel quite and about it all.
And he is sooooooooooo UNTIDY!

Whenever I hear a discussion about women/ men and housework someone often makes the suggestion to "just don't do it" with the expectation that the male partner will have to pull his finger out when it all gets too bad. But is that really feasible? It can't really be left can it? The DCs still have to have clean clothes, crockery, a clean ish floor to crawl on, And apart from the fact that for health reasons, the kitchen needs to be clean, I would feel responsible/ like a failure if an outsider saw my home in a real state.

That's just a rant, not even a reasoned feminist argument.
DS is poorly with a fever too.

Amanda

I'll say to you what I say a lot on here - why is his time more important than yours? Why is his time with the kids more important than yours?

It isn't.

By the way, is it your expectation or his that you keep house on your days with the DC?

"is it your expectation or his that you keep house on your days with the DC?"
A bit of both I think. He is self employed. A lot of his work involves "thinking" so it's hard to quantify. Which cn be a problem either way IYSWIM. Also, there is a power imbalance because he brings in quite a bit more money than I do. He would say he doesn't expect me to do everything, and I do possibly make things hard on myself, but then, it's got to be done. (laundry, cleaning, tidying) and he doesn't do much of t.
I could be being a bit unfair though. While I am bathing ad "story-ing" DCs at night, he'll clear up after dinner. He doesn't even go out really.
Tbh I get muddled when I try to explain it
I just really, really hate dusting and vacuuming. Mainly be ause there seems to be so much clutter to deal with before I do it.